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 Posted:   Sep 4, 2015 - 1:54 PM   
 By:   Yavar Moradi   (Member)

Something of a companion to these other two ongoing Goldsmith threads of mine:
http://filmscoremonthly.com/board/posts.cfm?threadID=90657&forumID=1&archive=0

http://www.filmscoremonthly.com/board/posts.cfm?threadID=109757&archive=0

Spurred by Intrada's recent lovely expansion of The Secret of NIMH, and being the obsessive Goldsmith nut that I am, I just thought I would use this board (with its many resources of industry knowledge) to collect in one thread a list of Goldsmith works that are confirmed to be lost. I'm going to assume for the moment that everything he wrote in the 90s onwards survives (though I know that it's not always guaranteed). Starting with the 80s, here are the scores of his I've heard are lost in complete form:

Link (1986) -- True, a "complete" unmentionable in mediocre sound quality does exist, but Intrada searched for decent sources on the complete score for years before they finally reissued the existing album presentation because they couldn't find any.

Legend (1985) -- Similar to Link, a "complete" unmentionable in mediocre sound quality exists, but James Fitzpatrick has commented on this board that when he produced the expanded album for Silva Screen in the 90s he used every surviving scrap of the score and to his knowledge nothing else survives in good quality.

Under Fire (1983) -- Lukas Kendall confirmed when he reissued the original album on FSM that the complete score tapes were lost. More recently there seemed to be a brief flash of hope as Twilight Time had thought they located a source of the complete score to include as an isolated track on their Blu-ray of the film, but it turned out that all they had was a music & effects for the full score.

The Secret of NIMH (1982) -- This was only recently confirmed by Intrada, though they were still thankfully able to locate the most significant previously-unreleased cue. But there are at least 9 minutes of music which seem to be forever lost, barring being newly recorded of course.

The Salamander (1981) -- Luc van de Ven of Prometheus (and presumably other record producers as well) tried to find tapes on this for years before finally deciding to personally fund a wonderful complete new Tadlow recording.

Damnation Alley (1977) -- Doug Fake of Intrada recently confirmed that the complete orchestral tapes did survive for Intrada's imminent release of the score, but that the synth parts were lost and had to be recreated by Leigh Phillips. Maybe some day they will be discovered and we will get the full film recording at last, but until then it's amazing that Intrada paid for the expense of re-recording this important part of the score so that the entire composition could be released on disc.

Twilight's Last Gleaming (1977) -- Though less than a minute of music is missing, several people here have claimed that it's some of the best music in the score, and apparently it was not on the surviving tapes supplied for the album by Joel Goldsmith (perhaps because it was a last minute "rescore").

High Velocity (1976) -- A personal favorite of mine, I've heard that again Joel Goldsmith supplied all the surviving music for Prometheus's release, which I don't believe is complete.

The Reincarnation of Peter Proud (1975) -- Doug at Intrada has been gathering varied materials for this for years, but despite (again) the existence of a complete unmentionable in so-so sound quality, apparently good quality tapes of the complete score have remained elusive.

QB VII (1974) -- Prometheus and Tadlow again came to our rescue, producing a new modern recording of this 90-minute Goldsmith magnum opus. The original Rome score recording however seems to be forever lost. I'm pretty sure that even the original LP was a fresh recording rather than being excerpted from the film recording, so in this case the complete original tapes were just as lost as The Salamander.

The Terrorists (aka Ransom) (1974) -- Luc of Prometheus counts this among his favorite Goldsmith scores, but all he could find to release was the poor-sounding LP program. Perhaps he will fund a complete new recording of it some day.

The Waltons (1971-73) -- Lukas Kendall confirmed on this board that The Homecoming (pilot film) was the only Goldsmith score with surviving tapes.

Shamus (1973) -- Lukas Kendall has once again confirmed on this board (and Film Score Daily) that this cool mod score is lost.

Pursuit (1972) -- Ditto.

The Man (1972) -- While less definitive than some other titles on this list, I think I've heard it strongly suggested by industry professionals on this board that if this score survived one of them would have released it by now.

Do Not Fold, Spindle, or Mutilate (1971) -- I think it may be Lukas again who confirmed this as lost.

The Last Run (1971) -- In his liner notes to the FSM reissue of the LP recording, Lukas confirmed that the (very similar) film recording was done separately and was in fact lost to the ages.

The Chairman (1969) -- I'm pretty sure this Fox film's complete score is confirmed lost, which is why Tadlow/Prometheus were at some point considering it for their complete Goldsmith re-recording series, but sadly James Fitzpatrick has said that Fox will not supply the written score for a new recording.

The Detective (1968) -- This board's ToneRow indentified a key missing cue from this score, but if it survived Intrada surely would've included it when they reissued the score with the complete Von Ryan's Express, both originally only available on the Varese Goldsmith at Fox box.

Hour of the Gun (1968) -- Doug Fake himself confirmed the LP program of this score was a re-recording, albeit like The Last Run and QB VII very faithful to the original film performance. He also told us the film performance of this score was similarly lost to time, but thankfully Luc of Prometheus picked this as the first complete Goldsmith score to newly-record in his complete Goldsmith re-recording series.

The Sand Pebbles (1966) -- In Intrada's definitive 2 disc presentation of this score, I believe they claimed one cue was still missing, and one cue they had to present only from the M&E track. Thankfully, the rest of this epic score did survive.

In Harm's Way (1965) -- Though they released their album only just after Paramount opened their doors for catalogue score releases, Intrada did claim they checked the Paramount vaults for this complete score and had no luck whatsoever, leaving them with just the LP program to reissue.

The Satan Bug (1965) -- Lukas confirmed that the complete score was lost, when he issued the FSM "Archival Edition" utilizing the surviving music-only tracks supplemented by a music & effects track for the other half of the score.

Shock Treatment (1964) -- A similar case to The Detective, with ToneRow noting one significant still-unreleased cue after Intrada's expansion I think -- presumably lost.

Take Her, She's Mine (1963) -- Varese reported the tapes for this were damaged beyond repair in the liner notes for their Goldsmith at Fox box. Perhaps more recent technology would change this assessment?

Freud (1962) -- Varese's Deluxe Edition was not quite complete, and I think I've heard the original LP also featured an alternate version of one cue.

Black Patch (1957) -- His first feature film score, I believe this was recently confirmed as lost by Lukas.

Here are examples of scores I wonder about, in terms of whether their complete elements survive or not: Leviathan, Criminal Law, The Lonely Guy, Raggedy Man, Cabo Blanco (the original album doesn't seem like the complete score), MacArthur (was the original album a re-recording?), S*P*Y*S, A Tree Grows in Brooklyn, Indict and Convict, The Don Is Dead, Anna and the King, Bracken's World (A Score Without Strings), Prudence and the Chief, The Ballad of Cable Hogue, Gunsmoke, Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea (Jonah and the Whale), Lilies of the Field, Face of a Fugitive, Wagon Train, Rawhide, Have Gun Will Travel, and other TV scores...

Yavar

 
 Posted:   Sep 4, 2015 - 2:03 PM   
 By:   Justin Boggan   (Member)

When Lukas spoke about "shamus" back in 2003, he also said:

The other is that the Columbia lot moved twice in its history (at least!) and very little was saved. They have virtually NOTHING prior to the '70 or even '80s...it's really too bad, as all those wonderful George Duning scores are likely gone.

So, anything from Jerry from that period and studio is likely also gone.


"The Waltons" may no longer be missing, or at least some of it, as I posted this on September 8, 2013:

http://www.filmscoremonthly.com/board/posts.cfm?threadID=98312&forumID=1&archive=0

No label has commented as of yet.

 
 Posted:   Sep 5, 2015 - 8:48 AM   
 By:   litefoot   (Member)



Here are examples of scores I wonder about, in terms of whether their complete elements survive or not: ...Face of a Fugitive...

Yavar


Some additional information for your list:

Face of a Fugitive: "I think Goldsmith's FACE OF A FUGITIVE is missing also." (Roger Feigelson, 2007)
http://www.intrada.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1039&p=9348#p9348

As regards The Waltons, Ford Thaxton said in 2009 that some music stems existed. Whether or not anything can be done with those using today's technology, I don't know. I also don't know if these are the recordings that Justin found. "I spent a very long time looking for these masters and thing that still exists are the music stems which are conformed to picture with dips in volume,etc." http://www.filmscoremonthly.com/board/posts.cfm?threadID=49291&forumID=1&archive=0

The inclusion of the next three in a list depends on whether or not you view them as 'lost'. I'm sure as a Goldsmith fan you are familiar with all the below, but for the record anyway:

Seconds: This has been released, but from a music stem (Lukas confirmed the masters were lost). "the only source available from the studio vaults were mono 35mm music stems off of the original film. Because this three-channel split source contained dialogue, music and sound effects, there was a bit of bleed onto the music tracks." (from the CD blurb)

Warning Shot: similar to Seconds. This has been released, but from a music stem (Lukas confirmed the masters were lost). "While WARNING SHOT’S score masters are lost to the ages, tracks 1-16 of this release were rescued from the film’s monaural music stem. Fluctuating volume levels have been smoothed out, but some hiss is audible, as are occasional low-level sound effects and dialogue bleed from the film’s audio masters." (from the CD blurb)

Sebastian: Again, this has been released, but from a music stem. "Premiering as tracks 11–32 is a program of Goldsmith’s chronological score as heard in the film itself, restored by Chris Malone from the monaural music stem." (Doug Fake from the liner notes).

 
 
 Posted:   Sep 5, 2015 - 10:08 AM   
 By:   indyray   (Member)

A lot of Jerry Goldsmith,s music is lost or maybe not.
Labels search for the best sound quality,what i do understand.
The most appreciate scores for me are,even the soundquality,are for example:
Varese:used the original Damien Omen II tracks.
La La Land:used filmstems for the release from Hook,there was one track lost.
Fsm Frantic used the Album and Filmstems.

 
 Posted:   Sep 5, 2015 - 10:59 AM   
 By:   Gold Digger   (Member)

Although we are lucky to have so much of Goldsmith's output available I find this post most depressing.

 
 
 Posted:   Sep 5, 2015 - 11:09 AM   
 By:   indyray   (Member)

Or hopeful.
If the Labels chose to use filmstems,music only.
I won,t complain.
Ray

 
 
 Posted:   Sep 5, 2015 - 12:18 PM   
 By:   BillCarson   (Member)

yes, even if most of yavars compilation is never found and turns out to be true, that is some major jerry scores there.
fortunately some have at least some kind of release in shortened form but those with no release, thats so sad.
This is important - no, vital - film music history here.
Chucking this stuff is criminal.
To think in so many cases somebody has just gone "Yeah chuck this junk in the skip"
Scandalous when so many enthusiasts would have ripped their hands off for the chance to look after these tapes if the studios just needed space.
makes you weep.

 
 
 Posted:   Sep 5, 2015 - 2:25 PM   
 By:   indyray   (Member)

If Jerry Goldsmith's lost music can survive in filmstems,music only,then there is hope.
Ray

 
 
 Posted:   Sep 5, 2015 - 2:34 PM   
 By:   indyray   (Member)

Goodbeye Board.This was my last post.
Ray

 
 Posted:   Sep 5, 2015 - 8:48 PM   
 By:   arnie   (Member)

OK, bye confused

 
 
 Posted:   Sep 5, 2015 - 9:51 PM   
 By:   jkannry   (Member)

Goodbeye Board.This is my last post.
Ray


Why?

 
 Posted:   Sep 7, 2015 - 1:03 AM   
 By:   litefoot   (Member)

Whther or not you regard film scores as lost if they only survive on music stems, is in the eye of the beolder I suppose.

The music on Sebastian sounds fine to me - I can't hear anything that suggests it's from stems, which is a credit to the restorers. But I included it in my post above anyway.

 
 
 Posted:   Sep 7, 2015 - 2:20 AM   
 By:   Rameau   (Member)

The music on Sebastian sounds fine to me - I can't hear anything that suggests it's from stems, which is a credit to the restorers. But I included it in my post above anyway.

Yes, apart from being mono it sounds very good to me.

I'd include the Flint scores in the lost list, as they're firmly locked up in Castle Varese frown

 
 
 Posted:   Sep 7, 2015 - 9:23 AM   
 By:   DavidCorkum   (Member)

The music cues in Shamus had little dialogue, so the music stems might sound pretty good, if they survive.

 
 
 Posted:   Sep 7, 2015 - 1:02 PM   
 By:   OnyaBirri   (Member)

You guys should be glad you are not fans of Luboš Fišer.

There's plenty of Goldsmith available, and his reputation is solid. I shed no tears for the lost scores.

 
 Posted:   Sep 7, 2015 - 2:18 PM   
 By:   Yavar Moradi   (Member)

Well, I guess I am a fan of Fiser, based on the clips I've heard on this board, and I definitely think it's a shame so much of his music is lost.

I guess you could say "my Fiser" is Roy Webb, who was a truly great Golden Age composer but virtually unknown today because most of his work was for RKO and therefore lost to time (except in the films), not to mention that a fire in his home destroyed all of his written scores (and probably personal copies of recordings) as well. Now, I *love* Roy Webb, and realize that most (practically all) of his great work will never be released outside of the films. But that doesn't mean I don't also "shed a tear" for lost Goldsmith scores, no matter how much of his work does fortunately survive. Isn't it worth "shedding a tear" for *all* lost music of quality?

Yavar

 
 
 Posted:   Sep 7, 2015 - 2:39 PM   
 By:   hbk4ever   (Member)

I don't mean to sound cynical, but aren't there always "newly discovered" or "recently unearthed" elements popping up. I'm not saying labels use this method so they can double dip, but things are always being found in attics and vaults.

 
 Posted:   Sep 7, 2015 - 2:46 PM   
 By:   Yavar Moradi   (Member)

Responses to others:

Justin, wasn't The Trouble With Angels a Columbia production (and Intrada just recently released the complete score in good mono sound)? That's why I'm reluctant to rule out things like Face of a Fugitive, unless I get a bit more definite confirmation (Roger's "I think" notwithstanding). Fingers crossed for The Waltons.

litefoot, I don't really count those three scores (Seconds, Sebastian, Warning Shot) taken from stems as "lost" because they are in (pretty much) music only form and complete. They were in good enough condition that labels considered them worth releasing, unlike say the complete Legend, Link, or Reincarnation of Peter Proud. Now I know Lukas decided Satan Bug was worth releasing officially, but I think that's a special case and since over half the score is riddled with very prominent sound effects I couldn't exclude it from my list even though a label technically released it "complete".

Gold Digger, no need to be so depressed! Miracles happen every day. How long were we told that the original recording for Conan the Barbarian was lost to time? And look at Hour of the Gun, QB VII, and The Salamander -- three "lost" scores on my list that were thankfully rescued by new complete recordings! I'm hoping the list in my first post can perhaps help Luc (or other wealthy funders of re-recordings) prioritize what else should be restored and rescued in similar fashion.

indyray, I agree that if film stems are the only option, I am grateful for releases to utilize them and give us the best quality possible. Sorry to see you've decided to leave the board for some reason.

Bill, at least (as Onya noted) Jerry Goldsmith has it better than some composers, where a far greater portion of their output is lost.

Rameu, I won't include in my list any titles for which elements do survive for the complete score. Otherwise think of all the 90s Varese titles I'd have to include! At least in the case of the two Flint scores (and The Other) we have Twilight Time putting out isolated score tracks, though sadly those contain all the film edits of certain cues, and don't include unused cues. This means that the Varese CD releases have some music not on the iso scores, and the iso scores have lots of music not no the Varese CDs, and there is probably some music that is still not on either. We're just going to have to hold out and cross our fingers that Varese gets around to a Deluxe Edition of those three scores, not to mention all the other Goldsmith they control.

David, I assume if Shamus had salvageable sources Lukas would've made sure a release came out one way or another. I certainly hope I'm wrong and that it can happen at some point.

Yavar

 
 
 Posted:   Sep 8, 2015 - 5:09 AM   
 By:   OnyaBirri   (Member)

...Isn't it worth "shedding a tear" for *all* lost music of quality?


I suppose so, but I think it is a far greater loss when the majority of a composer's output is lost and/or unavailable. This is coming from someone who who has lots of Goldsmith, albeit all dating from his pre-ponytail period.

 
 Posted:   Sep 8, 2015 - 12:08 PM   
 By:   chriss   (Member)

The music cues in Shamus had little dialogue, so the music stems might sound pretty good, if they survive.

I would buy such a release in a heartbeat!! We had some outstanding albums using stems over the last years. smile
It's really sad that Goldsmith's mega cool mod scores Shamus and Pursuit are lost.

 
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