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Do classical composers count?
Brian May in Road Games referencing, oh so brilliantly, The Planets (Holst) and Bolero (Ravel) with a zest of Aussie outback.
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John Barry in "The Man With the Golden Gun" referenced the previous film's "Live and Let Die". It was a cute tounge-in-cheek reference.
(And while I brought up Bond, there was the scene in OHMSS with all the past gadgets and tracked music, another cute moment, and the guy whistling the "Goldfinger" theme at another point in the film.)
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Elmer Bernstein helps out musically with a joke: a "Jaws" reference to accompany a "Jaws" sight gag at the beginning of "Airplane." Williams jokes around this way too, using his own "Jaws" music at the beginning of "1941."
In "E.T.," Williams quotes his own Yoda theme from SW:TESB briefly, when E.T. notices a trick-or-treater wearing a Yoda mask.
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Posted: |
Feb 21, 2015 - 1:59 AM
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By: |
Mike West
(Member)
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Probably differ that a bit:
actual quote (needs to be recognized by listener, so has to be quite literal and
well-known enough so that a mass of listeners is set-up and responds to it to
have a pay-off - otherwise the quote does not work)
Reference (a composer adresses a certain vocabular, almost like a quote, but not literal,
he uses the same grammar and the same mood and atmosphere. Again, the primary piece has
to be known for that to work out. There is a great reference in the third Pirates of the C. score,
Parlay, which references the italo-western shoot-out music in general and that famous one by Moriconne
With those two possibilities the composers is aware of the similarities and doing it with the intention
that the audiences recognizes those.
And there is the possibility of similarities by accident the composer is not aware of and
the liftings of previous music, which composers are aware of or sometimes not,
Horner was mentioned. He is behaving in interviews that he has no idea of the
sometimes literal similarities.
IMO, Brittens music in Troy is stolen by Horner, and I think this was done knowing that it is done - unless
there is not some kind of brain damage which disables to recognize music, like this illness when
People can't recognize faces.
In Swing Kids however, this could almost be a reference to Brahms, A German Requiem.
which is a brillant idea artistically. Except, it is also too close and literal actually IMO.
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Are you talking references as in homage, or as in just lifting? Or maybe both.
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Posted: |
Feb 21, 2015 - 4:19 AM
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By: |
Mike West
(Member)
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Are you talking references as in homage, or as in just lifting? Or maybe both.
1. Quote: literal use of melodic/motific material, causes new contextualization and conveys
very clear allusions from the previous situation which is usually a particular thing on concrete
level, like the Shark-Theme from Jaws alluding to a shark-attack;
composer needs to chose a source which is well-known and install the quote promimently so that is catchy
2. Reference: use of the " grammar" and mood of previous music, you could also say hommage when done right, or clichè when done not so sophisticated and unreflected,
causes new contextualization and is ususally also a respectful nod to the previous composer,
rather general allusion to rather a general idea, like to shoot-out-scenes in italo- westerns;
composer needs to chose a combination which is established and to make sure his current use
gives a new dimension with that reference, like the brillant "parlay" music nods to a music from another era, to avoid
stereotypes, like wailing women for desert epics
Sometimes those references to not work or you can't say if they are done on purpose. Compare the thread on the Dies Irae
references, those first four notes are very basic material and happen to appear in a lot of music, so this can often be:
3. Similarities by coincidence
4. Liftings
the difference is aesthetically that there is no new contextualization intented, like
the Britten War Requiem in Troy which is what? A christian Hosanna combined with
entering an antique city from greek mythology? Could be a great idea, but that's not
a Goldenthal concert oratory, so, no.
The Swing Kids combination on the contrary is brillant. Training for Utopia, to combine
that scene with music from Brahms, A German Requiem, this is strikingly brillant to install
that contextualization. The text from the Brahms music is a ressurection of all the dead kind of thing.
Though Horner did not credit Brahms, which would have been respectful.
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