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Zimmer has more refined filmmaking sensibilities than Williams? Really…? I'm not gonna read this thread any further. Any way, it's not about them. Hoping for Powell myself.
Pity, you'd have learned something.
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Gee, action adventure music was written for an action piece. How inappropriate! Also there are many character themes in the score that play to the characters actions on screen. Do you have any better criticisms?
I'm not making a blanket statement. I'm not saying it's all bad or all perfect. I love reoccurring character motifs, and Williams' is as brilliant at that as anyone has ever been. You're reading me out of the context that I established. I'm simply noting that sometimes too much effort goes into making a sequence LESS riveting. I didn't say it's the prevailing dimension of Williams' writing, I merely suggest the criticism has a precedence. Such instances do occur within Williams work, and when they do, I feel it is emblematic of a certain lack of cinematic acumen. Of understanding the nuances within the artistic storytelling of cinema has evolved past those overt conventions of superfluous superficiality. The more resonant approach is in playing the anxiousness instead of the exhilaration. Williams does it right more often than not, but there are times he just goes into automatic grandeur mode and does too much for too little of a result. Does that explanation not make sense? Or you just don't feel it holds water?
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What I was getting at in regard to Horner and Zimmer is that they had/have such a clear notion of the storytelling that they will legitimately fight a director and refuse to compromise at times.
And you know that because you read some articles or saw some interviews? Or were you involved in the creation of scores done by Williams, Horner and Zimmer?
You are filibustering here in many posts up to the point when it just gets tiring to go on reading, just because you claim to know more. But then you just go on and on about the same points.
It would be more refreshing and effective if you just stated: I like Horner and Zimmer more than Williams. That is a perfectly fine opinion even if I don't share it.
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Posted: |
Jul 8, 2018 - 11:18 PM
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By: |
SchiffyM
(Member)
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What I was getting at in regard to Horner and Zimmer is that they had/have such a clear notion of the storytelling that they will legitimately fight a director and refuse to compromise at times.
I, too, am wondering where this claim comes from. Zimmer is famously accommodating (nothing wrong with that), and the sheer number of revisions Horner did for "Avatar" suggests he didn't say "no" to James Cameron a whole lot (again, nothing wrong with that – the man was his boss). It's funny how sometimes Horner's blatant swipes from the classics have been defended on this board as something a director demanded, and yet here comes the opposite argument. I would guess that neither is really true.
I would also say that any composer who refuses to compromise with a director may possibly be a brilliant composer, but is a terrible film composer. Would you defend a costume designer who refuses to dress a character how the director wishes, or a cinematographer who won't frame a shot as the director has instructed? A composer should argue for his creative vision, of course (and of course John Williams does this, as do all composers but the greenest and most desperate). But he is serving the director, producer, and studio. If he bristles at that, he should compose a concert piece.
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I can now visualise octagon sitting down in a room, ala James McAvoy in SPLIT, wondering who's go is it next.
Wagner Almighty?
Aidabaibadaiba?
Invent a new one?
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What I was getting at in regard to Horner and Zimmer is that they had/have such a clear notion of the storytelling that they will legitimately fight a director and refuse to compromise at times.
I, too, am wondering where this claim comes from. Zimmer is famously accommodating (nothing wrong with that), and the sheer number of revisions Horner did for "Avatar" suggests he didn't say "no" to James Cameron a whole lot (again, nothing wrong with that – the man was his boss). It's funny how sometimes Horner's blatant swipes from the classics have been defended on this board as something a director demanded, and yet here comes the opposite argument. I would guess that neither is really true.
I would also say that any composer who refuses to compromise with a director may possibly be a brilliant composer, but is a terrible film composer. Would you defend a costume designer who refuses to dress a character how the director wishes, or a cinematographer who won't frame a shot as the director has instructed? A composer should argue for his creative vision, of course (and of course John Williams does this, as do all composers but the greenest and most desperate). But he is serving the director, producer, and studio. If he bristles at that, he should compose a concert piece.
a great composer can do both. As for some of the classical music some are boring and the same as other classical music.
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How many Times has Johnny T. Williams been fired or walked off a score?
How many times did Horner, Goldsmith and Barry get fired off a score?
There are always several issues at play.
The Directors
The Producers
The Studios
And those dreadful Test Audiences.
We all know that if Barbra Streisand and Robert Redford had not meddled with John Barry’s process and scoring. We all would of enjoyed Prince of Tides and The Horse Whisperers music.
Most Directors Think they know about movie music...Most don’t. Spielberg embraces movie music and John Williams. We all benefit from that.
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I suspect it's about 50/50. After reading a number of interviews, listening to a number of interviews, and talking to composers in e-mail, I've found two sides of the coin: the directors who know how music works, maybe some terminology, and appreciate film scores; and then there are the ones I've heard composers complain about who know nothing about music, don't understand how it should functions, don't care and basically want wall paper they can edit up and change around as needed, don't really care about composer, sometimes even letting a situation develop where multiple producers will be tugging at a composer to "do it this way" or "do it that way" and you have to decide who to please. But in the end it doesn't amount to much; a real comprehensive study would be needed, and I can't imagine all parties being fully honest.
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Posted: |
Jul 9, 2018 - 11:57 AM
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By: |
townerbarry
(Member)
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Most Directors Think they know about movie music...Most don’t.
This is an easy thing to say on a message board that praises film composers, but I think it's utter, absolute nonsense.
Old Hollywood was all about, if you didn’t hear or notice movie music, It was a great thing.
All Composers from Willams, to Barry, to Goldsmith, to Horner, Elfman, to Shore and on and on..that has said ...Directors, will suggest some of the stupidest bullshit. Like one director suggested to Goldsmith..no drums. WUT?
There are only a true handful of Directors, that get the true art of film composing....but I will say this..Producers, And Studios interfere also..and them dumb cluck test audiences.
All these bizarre stories of Streisands and Redford are all on the net...look them up...
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I just had a composer tell me in e-mail a week ago an old story where a demo he submitted freaked the producers out because it had plucked strings. Never mind the series he worked on had used plucked strings before.
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Posted: |
Jul 9, 2018 - 11:33 PM
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By: |
SchiffyM
(Member)
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Dude...u fail. And Big Time..you seem to never ever listen to let’s say A round table of Composers that speak about Directors that have no clue...about movie music.
Noted, townerbarry. But I happen to disagree. Of course, composers have these funny stories. Music is what composers are responsible for, so yes, they have strongly held opinions about what they do. If you watch a roundtable of special effects guys, they also have funny stories about directors being clueless about their field. Same for production designers, and lighting technicians, and on and on down the line. Directors are responsible for a film as a whole, and hire experts in the many individual fields that make up this collaborative medium.
And yes, of course, some directors know more about any of these fields than others.
And of course, people who are passionate about their craft (whatever field it is) don't like having their opinions second-guessed by directors, producers, or studio execs.
(As a television writer, I felt that way about the network executive who gave me script notes three hours ago.)
And naturally here on this board, we take it as dogma that Barbra Streisand and Robert Redford were idiotic to fire John Barry. But personally, I don't find it hard to believe that Barry couldn't give them what they needed.
(As a television producer, I have twice had to fire composers – and it's incredibly painful to fire people – when they repeatedly missed the mark. I'm sure they disagreed. I can live with that. I had to do it.)
I'm sure I've convinced you of absolutely nothing. So be it. But statements that most directors don't know anything about music may make us feel superior, but they're not rooted in any reality, no matter what you choose to believe.
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Dude...u fail. And Big Time..you seem to never ever listen to let’s say A round table of Composers that speak about Directors that have no clue...about movie music.
Noted, townerbarry. But I happen to disagree. Of course, composers have these funny stories. Music is what composers are responsible for, so yes, they have strongly held opinions about what they do. If you watch a roundtable of special effects guys, they also have funny stories about directors being clueless about their field. Same for production designers, and lighting technicians, and on and on down the line. Directors are responsible for a film as a whole, and hire experts in the many individual fields that make up this collaborative medium.
And yes, of course, some directors know more about any of these fields than others.
And of course, people who are passionate about their craft (whatever field it is) don't like having their opinions second-guessed by directors, producers, or studio execs.
(As a television writer, I felt that way about the network executive who gave me script notes three hours ago.)
And naturally here on this board, we take it as dogma that Barbra Streisand and Robert Redford were idiotic to fire John Barry. But personally, I don't find it hard to believe that Barry couldn't give them what they needed.
(As a television producer, I have twice had to fire composers – and it's incredibly painful to fire people – when they repeatedly missed the mark. I'm sure they disagreed. I can live with that. I had to do it.)
I'm sure I've convinced you of absolutely nothing. So be it. But statements that most directors don't know anything about music may make us feel superior, but they're not rooted in any reality, no matter what you choose to believe.
Absolutely.
The problem is that some think they know the truth when they see or read an interview. Unless one works in the industry and knows it first hand one will only get hearsay, often puffed up for public consumption.
As a writer myself I also have stories about executives, directors and actors who do not know better when I know I do... until I have to acknowledge that their take was probably better suited to their vision.
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