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Posted: |
May 23, 2017 - 2:53 PM
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By: |
Mike_J
(Member)
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My heart goes out to the city of Manchester for having to endure another terrorist attack resulting in further pointless death.
But how amazing are the people of Manchester? Taxi drivers offering free rides to anyone who needed to get away from the Arena, strangers helping strangers, restaurants offering free meals to emergency workers. Such a great display of humanity standing up to inhumanity.
I have never understood terrorism on any level, whatsoever. Leaving aside the horrific consequences of it, terrorist acts have, historically, been largely unsuccessful in achieving the ultimate aim of the faction behind them and if anything generally seems to work against them, with retaliatory action and a unified populous.
In this particular instance, a pre-mediated attack on an audience comprised primarily of children, young people and families, has angered me more than probably any other act of terrorism since 9/11.
ISIS are claiming responsibility - of course they will do, they always do - but the initial indications are that they were indeed behind it. That being the case, it is any wonder the anti-Muslim contingent is growing in countries like the U.K. and the US? And at the risk of being highly controversial it is a fact that these fundamentalists, whilst without question acting on a minority belief, are part of the larger Muslim communities of those countries. Surely the communities know, or at least suspect, those people who are potential terrorists or support the terrorist movement? It is inconcievable to me that they don't, and yet they seemingly do nothing about it. If blanket and IGNORANT intolerance of the Muslim community as a whole is going to stop, the communities themselves have to start taking a proactive role in routing out the activists and supporters of terrorist factions within , rather than continuing their passive "not all Muslims are terrorists" stance.
NB This post is about terrorism - it isn't about religion and it isn't racist. If people disagree with the argument I have expressed that is perfectly fine but I am going to be mighty hacked off if this post is censored.
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Posted: |
May 23, 2017 - 3:35 PM
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By: |
Graham Watt
(Member)
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If blanket and IGNORANT intolerance of the Muslim community as a whole is going to stop, the communities themselves have to start taking a proactive role in routing out the activists and supporters of terrorist factions within , rather than continuing their passive "not all Muslims are terrorists" stance.
That is indeed a key point, Mike, and one which seems to be rarely addressed, at least not in an in-depth way - perhaps for fear of offending people. If the minority of nutcases feel shunned and actually outlawed by the larger group of normal people for whom they believe they are doing a service, it might help asphyxiate the desire, to a certain extent anyway.
Unfortunately we won't see an end to this now, but there are sensible gestures which could be made and which are not happening, such as the one you mention.
If I discovered that my own son were a rapist or a wife-beater or a "freedom fighter" for whatever cause, I'd march his fucking arse right down to the police station right now.
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Posted: |
May 23, 2017 - 3:47 PM
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By: |
Thomas
(Member)
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If blanket and IGNORANT intolerance of the Muslim community as a whole is going to stop, the communities themselves have to start taking a proactive role in routing out the activists and supporters of terrorist factions within , rather than continuing their passive "not all Muslims are terrorists" stance.
That is indeed a key point, Mike, and one which seems to be rarely addressed, at least not in an in-depth way - perhaps for fear of offending people. If the minority of nutcases feel shunned and actually outlawed by the larger group of normal people for whom they believe they are doing a service, it might help asphyxiate the desire, to a certain extent anyway.
Unfortunately we won't see an end to this now, but there are sensible gestures which could be made and which are not happening, such as the one you mention.
If I discovered that my own son were a rapist or a wife-beater or a "freedom fighter" for whatever cause, I'd march his fucking arse right down to the police station right now.
I'm fairly sure that's not as easy as it sounds. It's not like they're all part of one big WhatsApp group. Those communities are people like the rest of us with families, jobs etc. I would imagine the vast majority haven't any idea who these people are or where they are.
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I'm fairly sure that's not as easy as it sounds. It's not like they're all part of one big WhatsApp group. Those communities are people like the rest of us with families, jobs etc. I would imagine the vast majority haven't any idea who these people are or where they are.
That's the goal of terrorism, the strategy.
If they can cause people to polarise and demonize the bigger community they claim to represent (in this case Islam), then they push the world a step closer to the very conflict they want.
If ignorant people start blaming Muslims for this, then the backlash will mean Muslims feel alienated and will be genuinely persecuted. This in turn will lead to paranoia, as well as cause Muslims to defend themselves, so resulting in exactly the conflict the terrorists always pretended was their raison d'être. Classic simplicity, but we see even here that it works. Vicious cycle.
That thinking should be resisted.
Also panic should be resisted. Another strategy is that since atrocities can happen anywhere, they are effectively, in terms of fear and countermeasures happening everywhere. But they aren't.
Thomas and I have lived in areas where this stuff, these strategies, were well observed.
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Posted: |
May 23, 2017 - 10:33 PM
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By: |
Grecchus
(Member)
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Thomas and I have lived in areas where this stuff, these strategies, were well observed. I say that to deflect the inevitable table thumping from hotheads that I'm being pretentious or something.
For one thing, how certain are you of identical ideology being at the heart of the matter from the strategies previously observed? What is the exact motivational thread underlying these strategies? Can you be so certain to understand the precise ideological sequencing of ideas you claim to have been witness to before, even though the apparent similarity of these so called strategies with the newly exposed ones may outwardly look the same when they might, in point of fact, exist on an entirely different plane of existence at bedrock? Have you considered the possibility they may be qualitatively of an entirely different nature and order following closer scrutiny? Can you really claim to be able to perceive and empathize with, in perfect one to one correspondence, that which you claim to have complete understanding of?
In that case, could you explain to me how destruction of one's self can further one's cause?
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For one thing, how certain are you of identical ideology being at the heart of the matter from the strategies previously observed? What is the exact motivational thread underlying these strategies? Can you be so certain to understand the precise ideological sequencing of ideas you claim to have been witness to before, even though the apparent similarity of these so called strategies with the newly exposed ones may outwardly look the same when they might, in point of fact, exist on an entirely different plane of existence at bedrock? Have you considered the possibility they may be qualitatively of an entirely different nature and order following closer scrutiny? Can you really claim to be able to perceive and empathize with, in perfect one to one correspondence, that which you claim to have complete understanding of?
In that case, could you explain to me how destruction of one's self can further one's cause?
The strategy is universal, never mind the ideologies. In the UK Muslims were tolerated and integrated. There wasn't much of any conflict. ISIS and other groups now invite everyone to suspect Muslims. This leads to anti-Muslim actions, in turn leading to resentment from Muslims which then leads to recruitment to ISIS, and the conflict that never was, suddenly is. All terrorist groups everywhere do the same thing. It's handbook 101. You break the cycle by not buying into it.
Suicide bombers are no different. They have the same effect, they intend the same, and those who pull their strings intend the same. Stir up polarisation, get people to hate Muslims and want to expel them, and the war is cooked up. The suicide bomber doesn't survive his deed, the mere bomber does. That's the only difference. People dying for causes has always been. It shouldn't surprise us.
We also ought to remember that many Muslims are in fear of these people, just as in Ireland many nationalists were afraid to shop the IRA, and unionists the loyalist paramilitaries.
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The only reason someone would do the material bidding of others while being fully cognizant of the known ultimate cost to themselves comes from a form of peer pressure - the ostracism/punishment implied for non-compliance? Now that does make some kind of sense - psychological warfare at its best - the dependant and the overseer.
That's not the 'only' reason. These people are brainwashed into a literal fundamentalist agenda. There is peer pressure, but not usually a threat to their families. These characters really do believe in the Paradise reward, and it's the disenfranchised and marginalised malcontents who are targeted quite cynically.
My comment about populations in fear was in relation to the notion that Muslims should shop the terrorist cells. Firstly, they don't know any more than we do about who is a terrorist, and secondly, they fear reprisals if they tip off the police. Finger someone who's innocent and you'll be unpopular to say the least; finger someone who's guilty and you're now the target for the terrorists themselves.
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Praying this may give her pause to think about being more careful with her words and some of the foolish things she's said over the last few years, especially with her being idolized by so many millions of youngsters.
Here's a message sent to journalist Lauren Duca from an 18 year old who attended the concert.
It seems Ariana Grande is already very careful about the message she sends out to youngsters, and none of it sounds foolish to me. It sounds, in fact, exactly what they need to be hearing.
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