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Posted: |
Jun 2, 2016 - 9:43 PM
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By: |
Zooba
(Member)
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Been thinking about Kubrick's 2001 lately and remembering seeing it as a 10 year old kid in 1968 on the Big Cinerama screen upon it's release.
The film effected me greatly as kid. WOW, it was indeed an awesome experience to behold as I'm sure it was to many. Kubrick succeeded in transporting me to places so real, sometimes so cold and frightening. It was more than a movie for entertainment. Not being into or knowing what film music was at that time in my life, the music as heard in the film was quite big and effective and in CINERAMA and STEREO like I had never heard or seen something before. I had some knowing that the music was Classical music, surely THE BLUE DANUBE was classical music to my 10 year old brain. The Vocal stuff for the Monolith during Dawn of Man and on the Moon seemed so right for the scenes and was quite effectively spooky and atmospheric. Years later when I heard that Alex North had written an Original Score and that it was rejected, I was intrigued. I loved the music of Alex North ever since it made me cry for the first time upon watching a television presentation of SPARTACUS. That was probably a year after seeing 2001.
As I began to get more and more into film music after seeing SPARTACUS and discovering other composers such as Elmer Bernstein and Jerry Goldsmith, I was truly taken by the power of music in film and started collecting every soundtrack I could get my hands on. The MGM 2001 Soundtrack Album LP was actually the very first Movie Soundtrack I ever bought in my life and I was so proud that I saved up and bought it with my own money!
And so back to Alex North and Kubrick's rejection of his score in favor of what we got. Eventually Varese released North's 2001 with Goldsmith conducting. Wow, what an event and I remember feeling so disappointed to find out that North's Main 2001 Opening Theme sounded like a reworking of one of his Themes from THE SHOES OF THE FISHERMAN, which in fact SHOES was the reworking of North's 2001 material. But I couldn't blame North for using it for SHOES since it was never heard or used in 2001 and hell MGM owned it! I remember putting the North cues up to the visuals of the film and for the opening and the Dawn of Man, I thought they worked quite well. In the booklet for the Varese 2001 I was so enthralled to finally hear the back story of the North/Kubrick thing and was heartbroken to find out that Alex North showed up for the premiere of 2001 not knowing that his music was not in the picture. How could Kubrick have done this, without even telling him? "What a dick!", I thought. To hear that North was not informed made me very angry with Kubrick. I mean, the two had done SPARTACUS together and what magic that was. So Kubrick in my mind was the villain. Just a phone call to just say, "I love your music, but I've gone another way." What disrespect. What gall.
And so, what are your thoughts on this situation? I think ultimately, the Film and it's music as released will always be most powerful and the right choice, but the way it was handled was so unprofessional on Kubrick's part. I can however watch the film with both scores and enjoy it both ways nonetheless. Please share your thoughts. Was Kubrick a dick for not telling Maestro North?
Thanks.
I do like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekDscvvYOFg
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Yes, Kubrick was a dick.
However, he made the right choice, musically.
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Posted: |
Jun 2, 2016 - 10:28 PM
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By: |
RoryR
(Member)
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Alex's friend, Jerry Goldsmith, had a strong opinion about the 2001 premiere night thing, and I believe he pretty much vowed never to work with Kubrick -- and never did. I also recall Goldsmith saying that 2001 deserved an original score, that all films deserve an original score, but I can't recall where I saw that or what else Goldsmith had to say.
Have you ever read what Kirk Douglas had to say about Kubrick? Or Malcolm McDowell's thoughts on Kubrick during and just after he did CLOCKWORK ORANGE?
Also, have you ever seen the film Kubrick's daughter did of the behind-the-scenes filming of THE SHINING, and Kubrick's treatment of Shelley Duvall?
But Kubrick was, I suppose, like most of us, a mixed bag.
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Posted: |
Jun 3, 2016 - 7:51 AM
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By: |
RoryR
(Member)
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It's history now and it can't be undone and all involved are long dead.
The more important thing to ponder is what Goldsmith had to say about about 2001 not having an original score.
2001: A Space Odyssey is my second favorite film, so close to Planet of the Apes in my affections that I really think of them as both my favorite movie. One has a classic landmark original score, the other has music that was originally temp track music, then kept as the final soundtrack, and in the case the pieces by Ligeti, altered so that the composer would later complain.
As much as I love the music in 2001, I can't help but be of the opinion that in a way it was artistic theft. Do most here, including myself, even know -- or care, and that's part of the problem -- what "Thus Spake Zarathustra" was written for? I know I read it somewhere, and can easily Google it, but instead for me and 99% of everybody else it's just the theme to 2001. Is that artistically right?
Even "The Blue Danube" in my mind has more to do with spaceships in orbit and weightlessness than people of a certain period waltzing. Is that how it should be? Is that how Strauss would want it? Should we care?
There is a certain glee that can come from the fact that Richard Strauss, who wrote "Thus Spake Zarathustra," was a terrible antisemit, and there's a certain ironic justice to the Jewish Kubrick possibly forever hijacking the composer's work, but does that make it anymore okay?
It just brings me back to what I believe was Goldsmith's assertion -- a film, an original artistic creation on some level, no matter how commercial, still deserves an original score.
But I know Quentin Tarantino wouldn't agree, a filmmaker I consider something of a thief for using Goldsmith's music from Under Fire in his Django movie. Sure, I thought it was fun to hear it when I first saw Django, but I can't say I really liked it.
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Tarantino's "needle-drop" scores almost always take me out of his films for a few seconds, especially if it's a cue I immediately recognize. He has a real gift for writing captivating separate scenes and dialog, but there's always this strange "not-quite-grounded-I'm-borrowing-from-this" feel to his films that keeps you from making a real connection with any of the film's character's. And, his "temp score" approach to the films' music re-enforce this feeling. You can admire how skillfully he and his editors have shot and cut to the music but it's still not an organic finished product.
It was almost bizarre watching THE HATEFUL EIGHT with an actual original Morricone score during the first hour. That is, until the stuff from THE THING showed up. But then, THE HATEFUL EIGHT has other problems I'm not going to get into.
I'm afraid, for Tarantino, as it probably was for Kubrick, there were always going to be factors of trust vs. ego involved in musical decisions. Both directors could not yield control of the audience's emotional response to their films to someone other than themselves.
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Posted: |
Jun 3, 2016 - 10:25 AM
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By: |
RoryR
(Member)
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You know, I love the films of Kubrick and Wise, so I can't quite call them dicks about anything they did, though in Kubrick's case, it was pretty damn thoughtless (as was telling Douglas he'd be glad to take writing credit on SPARTACUS, but that's another story). I think thoughtless is a better term -- but I'm not trying to police anyone here.
I wonder if the Wise/Wood case was the same with Hepburn before the premiere of MY FAIR LADY? I kind of doubt it.
Anyway, getting back to someone I actually have little respect for as a filmmaker other than that he's pretty much done what he's wanted. During INGLORIOUS BASTERDS, I was really taken out of the movie -- which had already become quite bizarre enough -- when suddenly I heard the Tiger Tank cue from KELLY'S HEROES. Now I know most people that saw it didn't get the connection, and that QT might do it partially for those like himself that are in the know, but this film buff appreciates as much suspension of disbelief as possible, otherwise I can't take the movie as really much more than a big goof.
But I recall many in 1968 were of the same opinion (kind of) of 2001. At least at first.
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Posted: |
Jun 3, 2016 - 1:04 PM
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By: |
SchiffyM
(Member)
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Getting back to the original topic…
Kubrick did what he had to do, creatively. The movie has a story of sorts, yes, but it isn't really a traditional narrative film in many ways, more of an extended mediation on humanity's past and future. So using the Blue Danube, for instance, works wonderfully well because it juxtaposes that most sophisticated and fondly recalled dance theme against the movements of metal ships in the coldness of space. The connotations the music brings with it are the point, something an original piece could never do. What Tarantino does in his movies is technically similar, but serves a different purpose.
I'm not saying the movie couldn't have worked with the North score (which I love listening to), but it would have been a different movie, and not the one Kubrick was making.
All that said, if Kubrick didn't level with North beforehand, that's inexcusable. Rejecting somebody's creative contribution is never pleasant -- I've had to do it, and it's just awful -- but hiding from that responsibility is cowardly and unacceptable. North was a grown-up. He knew that sort of thing came with the territory. It's a shame that Kubrick couldn't have been a grown-up about it, too.
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This account begs to differ:
I was going by the liner notes on the Intrada release of the North score, which explicitly debunks that account. That said, I wasn't there, so what do I know? The Intrada was clearly well researched, though.
The Intrada notes also make it very clear that North suspected something was up.
The story never makes sense to me. He only recorded the score up to the Moon Rocket Bus. How could he not suspect something was up walking into a screening? Wouldn't he be thinking "Gee, I only recorded the first 30% of the movie, how odd that I am going to see the finished film now." And wouldn't he have suspected something when he didn't record the rest of the score? Did he even write the rest of the score?
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