Congratulations on a generally excellent article. It should be emphasized that Korngold's Symphony has become generally considered to be a late Romantic masterpiece, and is now frequently performed by major orchestras throughout the world, and has six recordings listed at Arkiv Music, including the Philadelphia Orchestra and the London Symphony Orchestra. Korngold is in fact the only major film composer who has had a truly major impact in the world of symphonic music, chamber music, and operatic music. Arthur Lintgen
Korngold is in fact the only major film composer who has had a truly major impact in the world of symphonic music, chamber music, and operatic music. Arthur Lintgen
The only one along with Dimitri Shostakovich!
And frankly, while I love Korngold's music, I have my doubts about how major an impact he's had on the world of concert music and opera.
I love Korngold but frankly I think Bernard Herrmann has had much more of an influence over the concert world (Korngold was quickly considered 'old hat' after he left it for film in the 30s) -- even though Herrmann wrote much less for the concert hall!
Korngold is in fact the only major film composer who has had a truly major impact in the world of symphonic music, chamber music, and operatic music. Arthur Lintgen
The only one along with Dimitri Shostakovich!
And frankly, while I love Korngold's music, I have my doubts about how major an impact he's had on the world of concert music and opera.
The point was that Korngold first achieved his lasting fame as a film composer, and subsequently his chamber music, orchestral music, and operas have also achieved significant popularity. Shostakovich was primarily a composer for the concert hall (and his film music in fact sounds shallow when compared to his concert music.
I love Korngold but frankly I think Bernard Herrmann has had much more of an influence over the concert world (Korngold was quickly considered 'old hat' after he left it for film in the 30s) -- even though Herrmann wrote much less for the concert hall!
Yavar
Yavar, I love Herrmann's music too, but his works for the concert hall are comparatively negligible.
The point was that Korngold first achieved his lasting fame as a film composer, and subsequently his chamber music, orchestral music, and operas have also achieved significant popularity.
Except, as a matter of fact Korngold first achieved lasting fame as a child prodigy composing for the concert hall and the opera house and being touted by the likes of Mahler, Puccini, and Richard Strauss. From this he moved into the world of film scoring. You have it exactly backwards.
If the popularity of his late-romantic style went into eclipse for a time that doesn't erase the successful career he had and the popularity he enjoyed before he ever set foot on a scoring stage. All his "fame" springs from his early achievements. I maintain that it was inevitable he would be rediscovered given the classical world's constant need for "new" material to champion and record.
Shostakovich was primarily a composer for the concert hall (and his film music in fact sounds shallow when compared to his concert music.
That Shostakovich was primarily a composer for the concert hall is also a matter of fact, but even so, in the comparatively tiny world of film composition he's "major" - he still managed to write ~35 film scores to Korngold's ~19. Out of those ~35 scores some surely are lesser achievements than his concert works, but ODNA, THE GADFLY, HAMLET, and KING LEAR are hardly "shallow".
It follows your statement "[Shostakovich's] film music in fact sounds shallow when compared to his concert music" that Korngold's film music presumably does not, but that may be telling us as much if not more about Korngold's concert works than Shostakovich's film scores.
alintgen, I am of course aware that Herrmann's concert works are dwarfed by his film work (though I think they are also by and large excellent). I wasn't suggesting that Herrmann's concert works were hugely influential, but that -- through his *film* music (or rather, his style from all his music taken together) -- he was more influential on 20th century concert hall composers than Korngold was (whether from *his* film or concert works).
alintgen, I am of course aware that Herrmann's concert works are dwarfed by his film work (though I think they are also by and large excellent). I wasn't suggesting that Herrmann's concert works were hugely influential, but that -- through his *film* music (or rather, his style from all his music taken together) -- he was more influential on 20th century concert hall composers than Korngold was (whether from *his* film or concert works).
Yavar
How on earth do you arrive at that conclusion? What concert composers can you name that have cited Herrmann as an influence? What concert music bears his mark? Really, now...
Yet I would venture that Korngold's late-romantic style of film music had a far greater influence on film composers than Herrmann's. Listen to any number of late 'thirties and 'forties adventure films and you can hear Korngold's influence. That's not to say that Korngold's style was original - I've read reviews that castigate his late romantic music as sounding "like everybody." Yet his opera "Die Tote Stadt" is routinely selected as one of the 100 greatest operas.
alintgen, I am of course aware that Herrmann's concert works are dwarfed by his film work (though I think they are also by and large excellent). I wasn't suggesting that Herrmann's concert works were hugely influential, but that -- through his *film* music (or rather, his style from all his music taken together) -- he was more influential on 20th century concert hall composers than Korngold was (whether from *his* film or concert works).
Yavar
How on earth do you arrive at that conclusion? What concert composers can you name that have cited Herrmann as an influence? What concert music bears his mark? Really, now...
Yavar is quite correct. There is an entire style of concert music that owes a substantial debt to Herrmann and his use of cells and ostinatos - Minimalism. Whether the practitioners of this aesthetic acknowledge the debt or not, it is undeniable.
There's a bittersweet irony in the chicken-or-the-egg consideration of Korngold's double life.
Lionized as a prodigy and a genius in the classical world, he nonetheless suffered a great falling off of critical appreciation in the postwar years, in no small measure because he had "gone Hollywood." He struggled for the rest of his lifetime in an effort to restore his place in the pantheon, but when that (alas, posthumous) re-evaluation of the composer finally came, it was chiefly due to the sudden, surprising success of the George Korngold/Charles Gerhardt RCA LP's of his film music. THE SEA HAWK and its ilk was such a revelation that it sparked renewed interest in Korngold's concert music. The happy result, of course, is that I daresay Korngold is now one of the most recorded classical composers of the 20th Century.
If we're talking about influence on *film* composers, I think it's much harder to determine which of the two has had more influence. I will say that Korngold's style was less "in fashion" than Herrmann's during the Silver Age, but then John Williams wrote Star Wars (main theme heavily influenced by Korngold) and that Golden Age symphonic style was popular again. (I know Herrmann arguably wrote in that "Golden Age" style sometimes, like parts of The Ghost and Mrs. Muir, but by and large he eschewed it -- example: he rarely used much vibrato in his writing, which gave his music a leaner, starker feel even when on a lovely melody.)
I know in the booklet for John Debney's great score to CutThroat Island, the composer specifically thanks Korngold (among others like Waxman and Steiner) for inspiration in writing for high seas adventure...
Anyways, I love them both. But as far as influence on concert hall composers, it's clear-cut that Herrmann wins.
There is an entire style of concert music that owes a substantial debt to Herrmann and his use of cells and ostinatos - Minimalism. Whether the practitioners of this aesthetic acknowledge the debt or not, it is undeniable.
Hmm. I'm not so sure. It's one thing to use repetitive devices to thread their way among movie scenes with outbursts and pauses for effect. It's quite another to construct entire compositions on minimalist principles of repetition and organic evolution. Herrmann's film music is essentially dramatic. The concert music of Reich and Glass is not. The one composer I know to have expressed a debt to Herrmann is Stephen Sondheim. That was in connection with Sweeney Todd, which nobody would describe as a minimalist work.
There is an entire style of concert music that owes a substantial debt to Herrmann and his use of cells and ostinatos - Minimalism. Whether the practitioners of this aesthetic acknowledge the debt or not, it is undeniable.
Hmm. I'm not so sure. It's one thing to use repetitive devices to thread their way among movie scenes with outbursts and pauses for effect. It's quite another to construct entire compositions on minimalist principles of repetition and organic evolution. Herrmann's film music is essentially dramatic. The concert music of Reich and Glass is not. The one composer I know to have expressed a debt to Herrmann is Stephen Sondheim. That was in connection with Sweeney Todd, which nobody would describe as a minimalist work.
Of course you're correct that Herrmann's film music is essentially dramatic - it's applied music written to accompany a narrative. And Reich and Glass' concert music isn't bound by any pre-existing material so they're free to indulge their technique to the utmost. But I don't see why they couldn't have found something in Herrmann's dramatic music that they felt they could utilize - and run with - in their absolute music. I'm talking about influence, not saying Herrmann "created" minimalism. And I'm not suggesting that Herrmann was the sole inspiration for minimalism. There's likely some debt to ethnic music such as Indian ragas, and other influences besides. But I defy anyone to listen to Herrmann's PSYCHO and not hear a proto-minimalism in it. The orchestral minimalists, such as Reich and Adams, even cribbed Herrmann's penchant for oddball instrumentation.
While none of the minimalists have spoken of Herrmann as an influence as far as I know, that's not surprising. Some of them have mentioned Moondog, but he strikes me as just the sort of edgy "outsider" they would boast of having listened to. My guess is that each and every one of them would sooner cut off his arm than admit to having learned anything from a film composer. Sondheim, a theater composer, probably just isn't so snooty.
is it possible that this discussion got off on the wrong foot by making a question of Korngold's "influence"? I, for one, have always adored Korngold as an exemplar of the great classical tradition without ever imagining that he might have influenced anybody one way or the other. As outstanding as his film scores were, the music this guy from Vienna wrote for Hollywood was in the same time-honored romantic/classical vein which was the norm for film scores in that era. When Mr. Welles introduced Herrmann to the cinema world, his sometimes spare scoring was hailed as a breath of fresh air, which I suppose does qualify him as an influence, on movie music at least.
