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I'd said in the recent topic for Intrada's Flint LP recordings reissue that I might start a new topic about this subject, so here it is!
Just as John Williams did many times in the 60s, 70s, and 80s (ie. Jaws, E.T., The Fury, and of course the immortal classic Not With My Wife, You Don't!), Jerry Goldsmith on quite a few occasions would conduct (or at least oversee, in the case of Damien: Omen II) a separate and unique recording of a score for the LP album. Sometimes this was to avoid high L.A. re-use fees by recording in England, and sometimes (like I think the recently issued Flints) they were done just for artistic reasons.
Some people would call these "re-recordings" but since they were often done around the same time as the film sessions I just refer to them as "album recordings" to distinguish them from things like Islands of the Stream or the superb Rio Conchos/Artist Who Did Not Want to Paint for Intrada, or the many (my favorite by far being Frontiers) re-recordings done for Varese in the 90s. I am also not talking about albums of his which may have had different takes or edits from the versions used in the film (or unique "sweeteners"), or perhaps a couple unique tracks which were recorded specifically for the album but at the film sessions (ie. Under Fire). Then of course there are a few albums like Warning Shot and I think The Man From U.N.C.L.E. which were new recordings but which Goldsmith himself was not involved with.
I'm referring to these, all completely separate recordings from the film versions:
The Prize (1963, only 5 tracks...the 5th of which wasn't on the original LP but FSM rescued as a bonus on their Poltergeist release)
Our Man Flint (1966)
Stagecoach (1966)
Hour of the Gun (1967)
In Like Flint (1967)
Justine (1969)
Patton (1970)
Wild Rovers (1971)
The Last Run (1971)
QB VII (1974)
MacArthur (1977)
Capricorn One (1978)
Damien: Omen II (1978)
Masada (1981, and I think the last, chronologically)
I may have missed one or two so I'm hoping people here can help me out (was the Lilies of the Field album different from the film recordings?)
The Masada LP recording also really needs a new release because the old CD version had mastering errors. But I'm pretty sure that these two Flint LPs were the very last unique Goldsmith LP recordings that hadn't ever officially made it to CD yet.
Many people have been waiting for the Flints for a long time because they actually prefer them to the film recordings. Some of the above list are strongly preferred by the majority of film music fans to the film versions in fact, in particular Capricorn One (though the film recording has its staunch fans as well, me included), Damien: Omen II (only missing one cue compared with the complete film recording and in superior sound), Patton (recording quality not as dry), and perhaps surprisingly, Masada (the much longer complete score is amazing to have but some prefer the original album's recording quality).
Some are incredibly similar to the film versions: The Prize, Hour of the Gun (sadly the film recording was lost so thanks to Tadlow for reconstructing and recording the complete score!), QB VII (ditto...though there were a few differences), Justine, Wild Rovers, and The Last Run (fortunate since the film recording is lost).
In my opinion the Alexander Courage-conducted Stagecoach album recording falls into the latter group ("incredibly similar") but others, including Lukas Kendall, really dislike the original LP recording because of some differences in instrumental emphasis. I'm glad to have both recordings and I wish LLL had included a remastered version of the album recording to make their lovely Stagecoach reissue truly definitive. Thankfully Intrada stepped up to the plate.
So what do you yourself think? Always prefer the original recordings? Like the album versions better? Some combination of the two? Chime in here, and also please let me know if Jerry did more of these than the 14 I listed.
Yavar
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I agree that the LP recording of "Capricorn One" is superior to the film recording. That said: I own both; I wouldn't be without either; and both get airplay.
For "Damien—Omen II", I was initially disappointed by the LP. I felt it had been 'concertized' and lost some of the raw edge I fell in love with in the movie. However, I have since grown to love this recording for its own merits. I do, however, in this case, prefer the film recording.
Cheers
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Very interesting, Bob -- thanks! So do you know whether MacArthur and Lilies of the Field were taken from the film sessions or were separate recordings?
---
I wonder if Michael Mattessino was let loose on the original Damien: Omen II recording with modern technology, if he could bring the sound quality up to the LP recording's level. Then a lot of people might reassess it.
Yavar
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For "Damien—Omen II", I was initially disappointed by the LP. I felt it had been 'concertized' and lost some of the raw edge I fell in love with in the movie. However, I have since grown to love this recording for its own merits. I do, however, in this case, prefer the film recording.
I find I do prefer the film recording. There's more urgency, and I think the choir and brass are a force to be reckoned with. The grit and 'bite' is so important with this one. Broken Ice is such a tour de force on the film recording and just delights in that obscene over-the-top approach that the album versions don't quite reach.
And of course, the main and end titles just aren't the same without that synth bass line. The film sketches indicate it's an ARP-2600 fed through an echo-plex. Even though it only makes a few appearances, that sound defines the entire score for me. A brilliant choice by Goldsmith that really captures the essence of the film in one sound.
I would love to see those sketches. They'd be double-dutch to me, but I'd love to see them just because it's like looking at an ancient artifact. I might not understand it but it'd be cool to see nevertheless.
Cheers
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For older scores, I usually prefer rerecordings ('older' in this case meaning -- let's say -- pre-1970), for newer it can be either of the two, as long as the album is carefully arranged for listening. This applies to all composers, not only Goldsmith.
This is because one of my first concerns is sound quality.
Wow, Thor -- I get that this appeals to you as a "meta"ish topic, but did you even read my opening post? I took pains to make clear that what I was NOT talking about was "rerecordings of older scores", but I guess you feel the need to share your opinion on the subject even in places where it is not the subject.
The subject I brought up was separate recordings made for albums *at the time of the film*, and specifically Goldsmith's. I don't think that's something you've really presented an opinion on, aside from the fact that most of them have been "carefully arranged for listening" -- but original film tracks can just as easily be done that way.
Yavar
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For Under Fire the album used the film sessions done in London, with some "sweeteners" which were later recorded in L.A. but many of which themselves ended up in the film mix. The confusion about it being a separate recording arises primarily from the two tracks recorded specifically for the album (#s 1 and 7). From FSM's release page: "Goldsmith wrote two standalone selections for the record (tracks 1 and 7) and after completing the recording sessions in London decided to record additional overlays and linking material in Los Angeles. The record came out so well that many of the album mixes were retroactively dubbed into the film itself."
http://filmscoremonthly.com/cds/detail.cfm/CDID/398/Under-Fire/
So while the LP was a unique creation (arguably like The Swarm, with all of its unique edits which is why people want it even though it was just taken from the complete film recording) it was not a separate album recording.
Similarly for Sebastian if you read the Intrada liner notes you will discover that only two cues on the album were ones that did not appear in the film. The difference between the film version on the Intrada album (presented from stems) and the album version (presented from original tapes) is for the most part one of different edits...and obviously due to the differing sources used, sound quality. But they were from the same performance.
I still haven't heard anything definitive about Lilies of the Field or MacArthur, however.
Yavar
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Posted: |
Oct 17, 2014 - 3:36 PM
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By: |
Thomas
(Member)
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For older scores, I usually prefer rerecordings ('older' in this case meaning -- let's say -- pre-1970), for newer it can be either of the two, as long as the album is carefully arranged for listening. This applies to all composers, not only Goldsmith.
This is because one of my first concerns is sound quality.
Wow, Thor -- I get that this appeals to you as a "meta"ish topic, but did you even read my opening post? I took pains to make clear that what I was NOT talking about was "rerecordings of older scores", but I guess you feel the need to share your opinion on the subject even in places where it is not the subject.
The subject I brought up was separate recordings made for albums *at the time of the film*, and specifically Goldsmith's. I don't think that's something you've really presented an opinion on, aside from the fact that most of them have been "carefully arranged for listening" -- but original film tracks can just as easily be done that way.
Steer clear of the naval gazing, self proclaimed Goldsmith 'experts' on the board, Thor. They might eat you alive.
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I guess you're referring to me as one of those navel-gazing self-proclaimed Goldsmith experts, but I don't think it's a lot to ask for someone to read the main post before replying to it. Thor is quite welcome to bump up one of the many threads on this board discussing original recordings vs. re-recordings.
I was trying to discuss something different...or even if one thinks that these album recordings done at the time of the film count as "re-recordings" they are certainly a subset of them which Thor did not seem to be addressing in his post.
Yavar
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I edited the first post to remove The Trouble With Angels, which (like Sebastian, except for one or two tracks) was revealed to be taken from the film recording after all, thanks to the notes in Intrada's recent release.
Someone had a recent thread asking about album recordings vs. film recordings in general which made me seek out this old thread of mine...but now I can't find their thread.
Yavar
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I have updated the first post to definitively add MacArthur to the list of unique album recordings, thanks to what Kev McGann recently wrote as confirmation in this FSM thread:
https://filmscoremonthly.com/board/posts.cfm?threadID=23432&forumID=1&archive=1
Bloody hell, this film is a struggle to sit through. Don't think I'll make it to the end (again).
One thing I did notice (or maybe forgot) is how much difference there is between the film tracks and the LP/CD tracks.
Like DAMIEN OMEN II & JAWS, the LP re-recordings are a different beast to their film counterparts.
If this ever gets a re-release or expansion, I guess putting out both versions would be the way to go.
I also enjoy this music more than the PATTON score overall, despite the march being inferior to PATTON'S, I think the sad/longing theme is brilliant and that graty/raspy piano stuff is ace.
...
It's a wonder one of the labels (Intrada, LLL, Varese) haven't given this the deluxe treatment.
I wonder what the delay is with this title?
As I said, the score IN THE FILM is quite different to what we hear on the old LP (and CD).
Even tracks that are on the LP either start out differently, or feature different edits and tempos and orchestration.
It's very much like his MASADA LP programme vs what was heard in the show.
The LP is much more smoother and fuller and tidied-up, when compared to the more raw film score tracks.
I have also removed the following outdated paragraph as Intrada released definitive versions of both from the first generation tapes (and Trouble With Angels wasn't a re-recording after all, anyway): "Since their Mainstream twofer CD issue is getting a bit old and may not have been from the original tapes, I would love a reissue of The Trouble with Angels from one of our current labels (hopefully with the film recording too if it survives) and would probably buy a remastered reissue of Stagecoach (LLL missed an opportunity to make their beautiful looking reissue definitive by including the different LP recording as well)."
Yavar
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