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I don't know if this was said earlier, but my favorite scored moment in the film is "Corrine Put Down" - for me, one of the best mounted ally-deaths in the James Bond movies. And it's nicely paired with Centrifuge on the album, which is the other scene I think of as relatively serious. (Though it's a silly idea that a training device can be set to kill, not to mention the wrist dart-gun.)
I wish very much that the movie had been more like that suddenly very serious and straightforward scene with the dogs bringing down Bond's ally/Drax's traitor. Though it loses impact since Bond isn't even aware that she has been killed, so there is no emotion attached.
I will always remember my major disappointment with the film when I saw it '79, and how grateful I was a couple of years later with the course correction in For Your Eyes Only, even if Barry was missing in action.
But I always loved the album, even the disco version of the song. It's the Bond song I sing the most, to no one's pleasure but mine.
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To those who miss JB's use of the bond theme in his latter Bond scores . . . just let me say this: Over the course of the original arrangement and the subsequent eleven films, Barry did so many variations of this theme. His opening alone featured strings, Moog Synthesizers, and countless guitars of different tones, plus You Only Live Twice's opening might have been an electric bass.
And then there's the variations heard within the films themselves--the rising and falling ostinato became practically the theme itself, denoting Bond as much as any other element.
There were pizzicato strings playing the theme at the end of Thunderball, flutes quoting the bridge in OHMSS, and drum machines playing the theme in The Living Daylights, and so much more.
Barry owned this theme, arranging it more often and in more ingenious ways than any other composer, so I'd cut him some slack if he didn't drag it out there as often as the youngsters, who loved to finally get a chance to play with it.
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Posted: |
Jan 27, 2022 - 2:42 PM
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By: |
danbeck
(Member)
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I don't know if this was said earlier, but my favorite scored moment in the film is "Corrine Put Down" - for me, one of the best mounted ally-deaths in the James Bond movies. And it's nicely paired with Centrifuge on the album, which is the other scene I think of as relatively serious. (Though it's a silly idea that a training device can be set to kill, not to mention the wrist dart-gun.)
I wish very much that the movie had been more like that suddenly very serious and straightforward scene with the dogs bringing down Bond's ally/Drax's traitor. Though it loses impact since Bond isn't even aware that she has been killed, so there is no emotion attached.
I will always remember my major disappointment with the film when I saw it '79, and how grateful I was a couple of years later with the course correction in For Your Eyes Only, even if Barry was missing in action.
But I always loved the album, even the disco version of the song. It's the Bond song I sing the most, to no one's pleasure but mine.
Corrine Put Down is also a favorite scene and perfectly scored (tragic but beautifull) - I love those scenes of the baddies disposing traitors or the ones that failed to kill bond (like Helga and the piranhas on YOLT or the sharks on Thunderball). I was very happy when I acquired the soundtrack to find that it was included (but I also hoped that the "Boat Chase" was the gondola chase and not the amazon scene and was disappointed to discover that it was the latter).
In the late 80's I rented the VHS of Moonraker and had to leave for school after the Venice section and remember at that point I left feeling that it would be one of the best Bonds from Moore. But when I watched the second part, starting with the scenes in Brazil (I'm Brazilian) which are absurd (Bond goes to Rio then appears in the south of Brazil as a gaucho [more than 1.500 kms away from Rio], then goes to the Amazon where he ends on the Iguaçu falls [which are not near the Amazon btw], then he finds a Maya pyramid [which does not exist in Brazil]...), then the Space scenes... and Moore too blasé, never acting as he was in real danger (after the centrifugue scene) - it was a huge disappointment. But I loved the score since first viewing.
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Yikes, I had blessedly forgotten Bond the gaucho accompanied by The Magnificent Seven.
That's probably why it took me so long to warm up to Bernstein's masterpiece.
Shudder.
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How about the speed boat chase down the Amazon? That would have made a well-staged action set piece even better, rather than being slowed down completely the way it was actually scored.
Everybody seems to think the speed boat chase, also known as the slow boat chase, is some hard boiled fast action sequence. It isn't. The 'beat' of that scene is way too slow for faster music.
Plus, it's played for laughs.
The only thing that would have made the scene even more ridiculous than it is, is music that treats it like something it is not — fast, and hard boiled.
Just my opinion.
Cheers
It’s not played for laughs any more than the car chase in Spy Who Loved Me and look how fast that scene looks. I appreciate that the boat scene in Moonraker is not shot or edited with such kinetic energy as the Lotus scene but can you imagine if Barry had scored the latter in similar style to the Amazon scene?
Cars and boats make for very different chases. (SPEED 2, anyone?)
In MOONRAKER the Amazon boat chase is used to highlight the lush scenery, and at that point in the movie it is not really used for suspense anymore, just for showing how the boat will give Bond the chance to parasail off.
The gondola chase in Venice is about Bond slyly outmaneuvering the baddies and then transforming his gondola into a hovercraft. Here, Barry goes for a faster Bond theme.
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I think the score is a masterpiece, the lush music for the settings, the use of the 007 theme, even though its slow, the brooding music when Corrine is put down, the flight into space,etc. I love it. This, together with TSWLM and Octopussy are the 'Expanded' Bond scores i long for the most.
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This really is a beautiful score all around. It also contains my favorite version of the James Bond theme in the Free Fall and Gandola Chase sequences. This was the first Bond movie I remember my Dad showing me so I have a strong connection to it.
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Posted: |
Jan 28, 2022 - 1:31 PM
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By: |
TheAvenger
(Member)
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Cars and boats make for very different chases. (SPEED 2, anyone?).
True to an extent, but there are plenty of great, fast-paced speedboat scenes in movies - Live & Let Die, The World Is Not Enough, Face Off for example. Heck even the boat chase in The Man With The Golden Gun is pretty good (and I even like the way Barry scored that one - shock, horror!)
And yes I take your point about Speed 2. Not wanting to be a pedant, but that was a ship not a boat (but yeah, who looked at a cruise liner and thought - “that will look fast in a movie”?).
The Amazon chase in Moonraker aint great for sure, but I still think the music makes it even more pedestrian than it would have been with something more than the 70s Travelogue music we got.
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Posted: |
Jan 28, 2022 - 4:01 PM
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By: |
KrisTheMan
(Member)
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Cars and boats make for very different chases. (SPEED 2, anyone?).
True to an extent, but there are plenty of great, fast-paced speedboat scenes in movies - Live & Let Die, The World Is Not Enough, Face Off for example. Heck even the boat chase in The Man With The Golden Gun is pretty good (and I even like the way Barry scored that one - shock, horror!)
And yes I take your point about Speed 2. Not wanting to be a pedant, but that was a ship not a boat (but yeah, who looked at a cruise liner and thought - “that will look fast in a movie”?).
The Amazon chase in Moonraker aint great for sure, but I still think the music makes it even more pedestrian than it would have been with something more than the 70s Travelogue music we got.
I think you may be missing the entire point of the sequence and the tone of the movie in general, which is you're just supposed to sit back and enjoy it. If it was scored as a gritty, life or death action scene, the mood would undermine the audience's suspension of disbelief for next going into outer space, where a space lazer battle soon occurs. By having laid back music it primes the audience for where the narrative is going next. It may not be to everyone's preference, but taken within context, the irony fits the tone of the movie.
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Posted: |
Jan 29, 2022 - 3:33 AM
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By: |
TheAvenger
(Member)
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I think you may be missing the entire point of the sequence and the tone of the movie in general, which is you're just supposed to sit back and enjoy it. If it was scored as a gritty, life or death action scene, the mood would undermine the audience's suspension of disbelief for next going into outer space, where a space lazer battle soon occurs. By having laid back music it primes the audience for where the narrative is going next. It may not be to everyone's preference, but taken within context, the irony fits the tone of the movie.
Sorry, but I’m really not missing any point nor misunderstanding the movie.
With regard to the latter, yes it’s lightweight Bond compared with some others but the Moonraker I remember includes a scene of a girl being hunted down and (presumably) mauled to death by two dogs, has Roger’s Bond come the closest to death he probably ever did in the centrifuge scene, has a bunch of scientist killed by poison gas and in the final battle features just as many deaths as, say, the underwater fight in Thunderball. So with all that, I simply can’t subscribe to scoring the boat chase as the gentle pleasure cruise works rather than treating it as an exciting action scene.
The tone of Moonraker is actually a bit inconsistent - flipping from sequences like I’ve described above to hyper-camp humour. And yes I totally agree it is a film you are just supposed to sit back and enjoy - but it’s also an action movie above all else, with several exciting set pieces (including one of the best pre-credit scenes of the franchise IMHO) so there is simply no logic in throwing away an otherwise decent (albeit not great) chase with risible scoring.
I’m also struggling with your argument about suspension of disbelief. An hour or so before we get to that chase, Bond has survived being pushed out of a plane sans parachute, has driven around St Mark’s Square in a motorised gondola, and dangled from the Sugarloaf cable car - if the audience hasn’t lost its suspension of disbelief after those scenes, a frenetic action boat chase isn’t going to do it either.
As an experiment I’ve watched that whole boat chase with the volume muted. It’s not the greatest scene in Bond history but it has some exciting elements, including a lot of explosions and a cliffhanger (waterfall hanger?) climax. I then played the 007 cue from Thunderball watching the scene and while the tempo of that is a touch too fast from the boat scene it works a heck of a lot better than the plodding version Barry went with.
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You just have to accept that your opinion on this does not convince the majority here who enjoys the score.
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You just have to accept that your opinion on this does not convince the majority here who enjoys the score.
At no time have I tried to change anyone else’s opinion, nor denigrated anyone for having a contrary view to mine. And I accept my view appears to be in the minority. That doesn’t make my opinion any less valid however.
Well, certainly not because a majority has the opposite one.
However, opinions can be based on wrong assumptions. And if you maintain that Barry failed because he scored MOONRAKER with too "slow" music, that might be an opinion based on assumptions that at least are unconvincing.
If you still think, after posting several times the same opinion, that yours is valid you should try to find new arguments for it. Or - and that was my point - accept that you cannot convince most here.
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Posted: |
Jan 29, 2022 - 11:07 AM
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By: |
TheAvenger
(Member)
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You just have to accept that your opinion on this does not convince the majority here who enjoys the score.
At no time have I tried to change anyone else’s opinion, nor denigrated anyone for having a contrary view to mine. And I accept my view appears to be in the minority. That doesn’t make my opinion any less valid however.
Well, certainly not because a majority has the opposite one.
However, opinions can be based on wrong assumptions. And if you maintain that Barry failed because he scored MOONRAKER with too "slow" music, that might be an opinion based on assumptions that at least are unconvincing.
If you still think, after posting several times the same opinion, that yours is valid you should try to find new arguments for it. Or - and that was my point - accept that you cannot convince most here.
Good grief, here we go again. You do seem a little obsessed with lecturing me on how I should post on this forum.
In the context of this particular thread, if I wasn’t making cogent arguments, predicated on a reasonable understanding of film-making, you might have a point. But that isn’t the case.
I haven’t made any wrong assumptions, I just have a different view to the majority here. I’m not trying to convince anyone that I’m right and they’re wrong, because they are just polarised opinions. But not for the first time you seem to have an issue with me expressing my opinion because it doesn’t accord with yours.
I’m entitled to express my view, the way I want, and if I feel the need to expand on what I’ve said previously in response to someone making a point to me, I’ll do that. As previously stated, I’m not interested in convincing anyone, let alone you.
Just to be clear, nobody has convinced me I am wrong either, but many (present company excepted) have made very well reasoned and interesting arguments in defence of the slow tempo of the cue in question. I’ve enjoyed reading those and I’ve considered the points they have made, even re-watching the scene a few times taking account of what had been written.
You don’t like what I write. I get that, you’ve made yourself clear several times - apparently repeating that particular opinion ad nauseam is acceptable to you. For the record (and I may be wrong about this) I don’t recall a single post of yours that I have found particularly interesting, intelligent, insightful or even well written but I don’t feel the need to repeatedly comment about that, or criticise you, or attempt to tacitly suggest you don’t know what you are talking about. In most cases I simply see your name and skip past the post, which I wish I’d done on this occasion too (I’m sure everyone else feels the same way too so apologies to them all for temporarily derailing this thread).
And now back to actual discussion about movie music……
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Well, MOONRAKER. John Barry’s masterpiece.
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Posted: |
Jan 30, 2022 - 12:55 AM
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By: |
KrisTheMan
(Member)
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Sorry, but I’m really not missing any point nor misunderstanding the movie.
With regard to the latter, yes it’s lightweight Bond compared with some others but the Moonraker I remember includes a scene of a girl being hunted down and (presumably) mauled to death by two dogs, has Roger’s Bond come the closest to death he probably ever did in the centrifuge scene, has a bunch of scientist killed by poison gas and in the final battle features just as many deaths as, say, the underwater fight in Thunderball. So with all that, I simply can’t subscribe to scoring the boat chase as the gentle pleasure cruise works rather than treating it as an exciting action scene.
The tone of Moonraker is actually a bit inconsistent - flipping from sequences like I’ve described above to hyper-camp humour. And yes I totally agree it is a film you are just supposed to sit back and enjoy - but it’s also an action movie above all else, with several exciting set pieces (including one of the best pre-credit scenes of the franchise IMHO) so there is simply no logic in throwing away an otherwise decent (albeit not great) chase with risible scoring.
I’m also struggling with your argument about suspension of disbelief. An hour or so before we get to that chase, Bond has survived being pushed out of a plane sans parachute, has driven around St Mark’s Square in a motorised gondola, and dangled from the Sugarloaf cable car - if the audience hasn’t lost its suspension of disbelief after those scenes, a frenetic action boat chase isn’t going to do it either.
As an experiment I’ve watched that whole boat chase with the volume muted. It’s not the greatest scene in Bond history but it has some exciting elements, including a lot of explosions and a cliffhanger (waterfall hanger?) climax. I then played the 007 cue from Thunderball watching the scene and while the tempo of that is a touch too fast from the boat scene it works a heck of a lot better than the plodding version Barry went with.
What I was trying to get at is if the boat chase was scored seriously, the tone would have been at odds for what is to come next, because going into outer space where a space lazer battle ensues is practically a different genre. By having laid back music, the lead up to those plot points are easier to justify because it was never about real world plausibility, only the world of (Roger Moore as) James Bond's plausibility. The suspension of disbelief for the finale is supported this way, and this is overall exemplary of the film's tone.
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Sorry, but I’m really not missing any point nor misunderstanding the movie.
With regard to the latter, yes it’s lightweight Bond compared with some others but the Moonraker I remember includes a scene of a girl being hunted down and (presumably) mauled to death by two dogs, has Roger’s Bond come the closest to death he probably ever did in the centrifuge scene, has a bunch of scientist killed by poison gas and in the final battle features just as many deaths as, say, the underwater fight in Thunderball. So with all that, I simply can’t subscribe to scoring the boat chase as the gentle pleasure cruise works rather than treating it as an exciting action scene.
The tone of Moonraker is actually a bit inconsistent - flipping from sequences like I’ve described above to hyper-camp humour. And yes I totally agree it is a film you are just supposed to sit back and enjoy - but it’s also an action movie above all else, with several exciting set pieces (including one of the best pre-credit scenes of the franchise IMHO) so there is simply no logic in throwing away an otherwise decent (albeit not great) chase with risible scoring.
I’m also struggling with your argument about suspension of disbelief. An hour or so before we get to that chase, Bond has survived being pushed out of a plane sans parachute, has driven around St Mark’s Square in a motorised gondola, and dangled from the Sugarloaf cable car - if the audience hasn’t lost its suspension of disbelief after those scenes, a frenetic action boat chase isn’t going to do it either.
As an experiment I’ve watched that whole boat chase with the volume muted. It’s not the greatest scene in Bond history but it has some exciting elements, including a lot of explosions and a cliffhanger (waterfall hanger?) climax. I then played the 007 cue from Thunderball watching the scene and while the tempo of that is a touch too fast from the boat scene it works a heck of a lot better than the plodding version Barry went with.
What I was trying to get at is if the boat chase was scored seriously, the tone would have been at odds for what is to come next, because going into outer space where a space lazer battle ensues is practically a different genre. By having laid back music, the lead up to those plot points are easier to justify because it was never about real world plausibility, only the world of (Roger Moore as) James Bond's plausibility. The suspension of disbelief for the finale is supported this way, and this is overall exemplary of the film's tone.
Well said and reasoned.
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