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Posted: |
Jan 20, 2001 - 5:19 AM
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By: |
H. Rocco
(Member)
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Yep. And the motif goes back even further than PSYCHO -- I think the "madhouse" idea turns up in one of his early concert works (don't have the Smith book in front of me to confirm which.)Howard: I'm still channeling Benny's soliloqy to Danny, and doing my best not to punch in the computer screen while I'm at it (that gets us all nowhere!)
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Posted: |
Jan 20, 2001 - 6:58 AM
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By: |
André Lux
(Member)
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quote:
Originally posted by Howard L:
Hey Andre, go refill your guarana glass and give the guy a huge break, will ya?! Who cares if he can't read like the rest, he's got film music in his heart.
Uoooo... I do care Howard!
I have film music in my heart too. That's why hacks like Elfman bothers me so much. [I wrote this while drinking a huge glass of cold guarana]
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In fact, any true lover of Herrmann's works knows that this 'Mad House Theme' is Herrmann's musical signature. Just like Hitchcock put himself in every film he'd done, We can find "Herrmann's signature" in almost every works from his early film scores to his last, Taxi Driver.Let's add that whenever a composer pay hommage to Herrmann, he uses this 'three notes motif'... . We can of course hear it in 'What Lies Beneath' but also in STAR WARS - A NEW HOPE ( The Stortroopers on SE Disc 2 Track 4 ). There are many many more examples.
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I´m a fan of some Elfman scores, like EDWARD SCISSORHANDS, BETTLEJUICE, SLEEPY HOLLOW, BLACK BEAUTY, SOMMERSBY, GOOD WILL HUNTING, etc (well, not only a few I guess!), and think the man is talented. BUT, it´s a fact he can´t conduct or orquestrate. So, when André Lux asked about his role in the PSYCHO remake, it´s a fair question. As much as I enjoy Elfman music, I cannot stop to think he depends a lot of his orquestrators. And that his best work came when he was working with Steve Bartek and Shirley Walker.
Hans Zimmer can´t conduct or orquestrate too. I don´t have a clue if it´s that hard to conduct or orquestrate (I can´t read or write music at all), and don´t know the magnitude of the difference a good orquestrator or conductor can make in a piece of music, but my non-specialized opinion is that a regular music can be bettered a lot by a good conductor and orquestrator. And vice-versa. So, when I saw a credit saying "music composed, orquestrated and conducted by Ennio Morricone" is very different from "score by Hans Zimmer". Morricone did it, It´s his music. About Zimmer, Elfman and many others, lots of people could have worked the music. I don´t wanna be annoying (too late!), because to say the true, I just want to hear good music, who cares who did it?
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I´m a fan of some Elfman scores, like EDWARD SCISSORHANDS, BETTLEJUICE, SLEEPY HOLLOW, BLACK BEAUTY, SOMMERSBY, GOOD WILL HUNTING, etc (well, not only a few I guess!), and think the man is talented. BUT, it´s a fact he can´t conduct or orquestrate. So, when André Lux asked about his role in the PSYCHO remake, it´s a fair question. As much as I enjoy Elfman music, I cannot stop to think he depends a lot of his orquestrators. And that his best work came when he was working with Steve Bartek and Shirley Walker.
Hans Zimmer can´t conduct or orquestrate too. I don´t have a clue if it´s that hard to conduct or orquestrate (I can´t read or write music at all), and don´t know the magnitude of the difference a good orquestrator or conductor can make in a piece of music, but my non-specialized opinion is that a regular music can be bettered a lot by a good conductor and orquestrator. And vice-versa. So, when I saw a credit saying "music composed, orquestrated and conducted by Ennio Morricone" is very different from "score by Hans Zimmer". Morricone did it, It´s his music. About Zimmer, Elfman and many others, lots of people could have worked the music. I don´t wanna be annoying, because to say the true, I just want to hear good music, who cares who did it? Just think we should give the proper credits.
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I'm just fed up to hear irrelevant assertions on this message board by Andre Lux or other people.First, there are many composers who can't conduct their music and/or don't wish to and that have nothing at do with their composing skills. And by the way, we don't ask great conductors to be great composers either. this is really clear that Elfman knows how to orchestrate but I don't want to lose my time to teach single-minded, ignorant and really unfair people on such "discussions". This last comment doesn't stand, of course, for Marian, Nicolai, Thor and a few other kind and competent music lovers...
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Posted: |
Jan 21, 2001 - 12:51 AM
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By: |
JJH
(Member)
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quote:
BUT, it´s a fact he can´t conduct or orquestrate
this is not a prerequisite to being a great composer.
MANY compsoers throughout history have not conducted their own works. Copland took a few hits as not being the best interpreter of his own works. Bruckner did not conduct his music all the time. and I've even heard that John Williams is a "wretched" conductor (by some overly snobby classical music teacher I had, RIP).
Irving Berlin didn't orchestrate his own pieces, but rather played them on piano for someone to transcribe.
it is also pretty well-known that Igor Stravinsky had a few people orchestrate for him. I don't begrudge anyone that. Orchestras are hugely complex, and trying to get the right sound may take some input from others. and the copying may just take time, and be too much for one person to handle.
have you ever seen the orchestra for Rite of Spring? huge.
it's the music that counts, and not who arranged it for a certain ensemble.
NP -- ROTJ, just ending
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Posted: |
Jan 21, 2001 - 12:53 AM
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By: |
André Lux
(Member)
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quote:
Originally posted by Laurent WATTEAU:
I'm just fed up to hear irrelevant assertions on this message board by Andre Lux or other people.this is really clear that Elfman knows how to orchestrate but I don't want to lose my time to teach single-minded, ignorant and really unfair people on such "discussions".
Well, maybe it's time to creat the special SELF-INDULGENT DISCUSSION BOARD, where intolerant retards like Laurent WATTEVER, Thor and his equals can talk about whatever they consider relevant or make them horny. As for me, one of those "ignorant-single-minded"  http://www.filmscoremonthly.com/board/biggrin.gif"> folks, I will still be looking for someone who can explain what the FUNFA-KING, who cannot read or write music but have being involved in doing some decent scores in the past, did on thre re-recording of Herrmann's PSYCHO... http://www.filmscoremonthly.com/board/tongue.gif">
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Posted: |
Jan 21, 2001 - 5:11 AM
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By: |
André Lux
(Member)
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quote:
Originally posted by Gustavo Joseph:
I´m a fan of some Elfman scores. BUT, it´s a fact he can´t conduct or orquestrate. So, when André Lux asked about his role in the PSYCHO remake, it´s a fair question.
Amazing! It took another fellow brasilian to show up and understand what I was asking! Well, what should expect?
Our girls are the most beautiful, our tennis players are nunber one, our soccer is unmatchable, our music is the finest, our coffe is delicious (the list goes on)... It makes perfect sense then! http://www.filmscoremonthly.com/board/wink.gif">
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Michael Crichton once quoted that "the internet gave credit to the non-specialized opinion". That´s what we are here, only fans, who (I believe) love film music and just wanna talk about it, feel our impressions.
So, the comments of that Laurent guy are really rude and totally inadequate. Too bad for him.
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Eugene, regarding the Unicorn "Psycho", as I said earlier, this recording was made during a period of Herrmann's gradually declining health, both physical, which had become obvious, and, possibly emotional as well. According to "A Heart At Fire's Center", the session began with Herrmann conducting the Prelude. The book describes it as having been conducted "at a crawl". When he was asked what those with him thought, the response was "A bit slow", to which Herrmann charateristically replied "Whaddaya mean, this ain't the movie!" After several more tries, it seems Herrmann just gave up and handed the baton to his longtime associate, Laurie Johnson, and said "You do it". Herrmann apparently "woke up" as the book says, and recorded the rest of the score, in one day. My question is, knowing the fairly deliberate speed of the Johnson conducted Prelude in the final release, how slow must the Herrmann versions have been?
And, yes, "madhouse" music is definately recalled in "Taxi Driver".
By the way, do you know what he was scheduled to do after "Taxi Driver"? Get ready to feel slightly ill: "The Seven Percent Solution", "Carrie", a complete recording of "Citizen Kane", an lp of adventure scores ("Five Fingers", "Garden of Evil", "Khyber Rifles"), a second album of British film scores, an album of unused film scores, including "Torn Curtain" and Walton's "Battle of Britain".
Oh, well.
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Rude ?? ME ???? Please read your posts again, guys. My comments are definitely softer that any of yours about Maestro Elfman. And again, Elfman bas a very very good knowledge of instrumental colour and orchestration, whether you like it or not.
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Posted: |
Jan 22, 2001 - 5:35 AM
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By: |
André Lux
(Member)
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quote:
Originally posted by Gustavo Joseph:
So, the comments of that Laurent guy are really rude and totally inadequate. Too bad for him.
Gustavo, you are right. But reading miss Laurent WATTEVER last post it seems that were he come from call people "ignorant", "single minded" and "unfair" is somekind of compliment... http://www.filmscoremonthly.com/board/rolleyes.gif"> Well, by judging the kind of things he write and the music he worship, I think those words are indeed a compliment in his case! http://www.filmscoremonthly.com/board/wink.gif">
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Posted: |
Jan 22, 2001 - 6:25 AM
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By: |
Thor
(Member)
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I just couldn't keep myself from bursting Andre's soccer bubble, although it has nothing to do with film music:Norway has met Brazil three times in history. The first time was a draw. The second time - a few years ago - we swiped you off the field with a 4-2 win. And then, just to really emphasize who the best team is, we embarrased you in front of the world with a easy 2-1 win in the France World Cup! You can have as many WC victories and Pelé's as you want. You just CAN'T seem to beat my country, can you?
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Posted: |
Jan 22, 2001 - 6:48 AM
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By: |
André Lux
(Member)
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You are right Thor... Lets see: Brasil - the only four times champion of the Soccer World Cup and home of the Best player of the 20th century, probably the athlete of the century (Pelé). Norway - beat Brasil in a couple of friendly games. [And I don't even care about soccer... http://www.filmscoremonthly.com/board/wink.gif">] Well, our soccer is not that good after all.
But at least our girls are still the most beautiful - and that's something I care!
Can you imagine a hansome fella like me dating a lady Troll??? Not good! http://www.filmscoremonthly.com/board/biggrin.gif">
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Brian, I can certainly appreciate Mr. Herrmann's rational that the lp wasn't the film and he could conduct it a bit slower since (I'm guessing) he didn't feel he had to time it to the credit sequence and was recording the music for listeners at home. It was his music and I suppose he could take what ever liberties he wanted to. However I don't always feel the same way when other conductors step in and re-record old scores. That's why I love these original soundtracks that keep popping up from studio archives. As a kid I only owned a few Bernard Herrmann soundtracks, but now there's so much out there on cd that most of the gaps in his filmography have been filled in. I'd also like to chime in here about this Danny Elfman controversy: I thought Elfman ripped off Rota horribly in Pee Wee's first picture, ripped off Herrmann in Batman and Mars Attacks, and probably others but no one ever gets on his case like, say, James Horner, about it. I don't think Elfman would have much of a career if it wasn't for that guy Bartek who probably does all the work for him.
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