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 Posted:   Aug 25, 2013 - 5:59 PM   
 By:   welwynfilmstudios   (Member)

Joss Whedon has said Star Wars: The Empire Strikes Back had a bad ending.

The Avengers Assemble director has previously cited George Lucas' famous franchise Star Wars as an example of sequels that got it right. But he has now told Entertainment Weekly that The Empire Strikes Back "betrayed my trust" by not having an ending.

Joss said: "Empire committed the cardinal sin of not actually ending. Which at the time I was appalled by and I still think it was a terrible idea.

"It's not an ending. It's a Come Back Next Week, or in three years. And that upsets me. I go to movies expecting to have a whole experience. If I want a movie that doesn't end I'll go to a French movie. That's a betrayal of trust to me. A movie has to be complete within itself, it can't just build off the first one or play variations."

The Buffy The Vampire Slayer creator also had a go at hit teen franchise Twilight for emancipating its lead female character, while he had made his heroine Buffy empowered.

Joss said: "The thing about Buffy for me is - on a show-by-show basis - are there female characters who are being empowered, who are driving the narrative.

"The Twilight thing and a lot of these franchise attempts coming out, everything rests on what this girl will do, but she's completely passive, or not really knowing what the hell is going on.

"And that's incredibly frustrating to me because a lot of what's taking on the oeuvre of Buffy, is actually a reaction against it. Everything is there - except for the Buffy. A lot of things aimed at the younger kids is just Choosing Boyfriends: The Movie."

http://uk.movies.yahoo.com/whedon-finds-fault-star-wars-123145640.html

 
 
 Posted:   Aug 25, 2013 - 6:32 PM   
 By:   Michael24   (Member)

I wonder how many Internet fanboys will start bashing it, just because they feel the need to eat up everything Whedon says/does like he's some kind of god.

The Empire Strikes Back wraps up the story it's telling, while leaving some threads dangling for a continuation. (Just like Star Wars did.) It's one of my favorite movie endings.

 
 
 Posted:   Aug 25, 2013 - 6:32 PM   
 By:   Octoberman   (Member)

Perhaps Mr. Whedon had never heard of the weekly serial. George Lucas had let it slip that that concept was what the SW movies were formatted upon. Whedon might have missed it... after all, Lucas only mentioned it ALL THE TIME.

Besides, when you're only 16, EVERYTHING betrays your trust.

 
 Posted:   Aug 25, 2013 - 11:47 PM   
 By:   LeHah   (Member)

I have no love for Twilight, but Whedon's Buffy is not the standard he's holding it to.

She's a female empowerment character that is always at the expense of immasculating the male roles around her (Xander might as well be a eunuch) and then he ends his series by creating a whole bunch of Slayers at once, thus robbing his title character of her personal identity and qualities as a false attempt to "empower women everywhere".

As others better than I have pointed out before, the Whedon concepts of feminism are mostly wallpaper and falsehoods.

(And lets not even go near the Native American / Reapers stuff on Firefly)

 
 Posted:   Aug 26, 2013 - 6:33 AM   
 By:   Warlok   (Member)

Star Wars was its own self-contained story. Empire dared to tell a story that said "to be continued".

No different than a Game Of Thrones episode, or 24.

Thats a worrying comment in the series of comments from X about Y. I think perhaps people should stop talking *about* the projects and just get on with doing them.

 
 
 Posted:   Aug 26, 2013 - 7:52 AM   
 By:   joan hue   (Member)

I really don't agree with Whedon on the ending of The Empire Strikes Back. His complaint seems trite.

On the other hand, Whedon has sure provided me with hundreds of hours of wonderful entertainment. I have to respectfully disagree with LeHah's assessment of Buffyland. I never thought she lost her "personal identity" by sharing her power with other women, and I didn't think she emasculated males by simply being a powerful female. Also spreading her personal gifts helped the lives of other women who could in turn help others. I miss our wonderful FSM weekly discussions of Buffy and Angel. I wish he would do another TV show, but I doubt that will ever happen.

 
 Posted:   Aug 26, 2013 - 8:00 AM   
 By:   solium   (Member)

The ending of Empire never bothered me. I kinda assumed the story would continue. Though I do remember a collective angry sigh from the theater audience when they realized the film was ending without resolving Han's capture.

 
 
 Posted:   Aug 26, 2013 - 8:24 AM   
 By:   Ado   (Member)

Whedon is massively over appreciated in the nerd kingdom.
There is nothing, or very little, wrong with The Empire Strikes Back.
In fact, it is easily the best of all 6 Star Wars pictures.

What is interesting about the picture is that it is NOT a neat and tidy Hollywood ending

 
 
 Posted:   Aug 26, 2013 - 11:19 AM   
 By:   Octoberman   (Member)

Whedon is massively over appreciated in the nerd kingdom.
There is nothing, or very little, wrong with The Empire Strikes Back.
In fact, it is easily the best of all 6 Star Wars pictures.



Couldn't agree more. Thumbs up on your comment.


What is interesting about the picture is that it is NOT a neat and tidy Hollywood ending


Also strongly agree. Sometimes those endings are the best kind.

 
 
 Posted:   Aug 26, 2013 - 11:40 AM   
 By:   Morricone   (Member)

The ending never bothered me. It was the movie itself, that took all the interesting ideas that I thought were in the original STAR WARS and threw them in the trashcan, that got my goat. And as much as it became the darling movie of an elite group, including Pauline Kael who hated the first one, I have been delighted that the box office, rentals and sales of EMPIRE has consistently been the least of the first 3 episodes. The audience at least agrees with me.

 
 
 Posted:   Aug 26, 2013 - 11:46 AM   
 By:   Octoberman   (Member)

The ending never bothered me. It was the movie itself, that took all the interesting ideas that I thought were in the original STAR WARS and threw them in the trashcan, that got my goat. And as much as it became the darling movie of an elite group, including Pauline Kael who hated the first one, I have been delighted that the box office, rentals and sales of EMPIRE has consistently been the least of the first 3 episodes. The audience at least agrees with me.


I'm in an elite group? AWESOME! smile

Oh wait. Does that mean I'm like Pauline Kael? Oh no! frown

 
 Posted:   Aug 26, 2013 - 12:16 PM   
 By:   Uhtred   (Member)

On the other hand, Whedon has sure provided me with hundreds of hours of wonderful entertainment. I have to respectfully disagree with LeHah's assessment of Buffyland. I never thought she lost her "personal identity" by sharing her power with other women, and I didn't think she emasculated males by simply being a powerful female. Also spreading her personal gifts helped the lives of other women who could in turn help others. I miss our wonderful FSM weekly discussions of Buffy and Angel. I wish he would do another TV show, but I doubt that will ever happen.

We've got 'Agents of Shield' to look forward to Joan. I don't know how hands on Joss will be with Avengers 2 to make, but hopefully he'll get some Buffy/Angel/Firefly vets in on it.

 
 Posted:   Aug 26, 2013 - 12:39 PM   
 By:   LeHah   (Member)

I have to respectfully disagree with LeHah's assessment of Buffyland. I never thought she lost her "personal identity" by sharing her power with other women, and I didn't think she emasculated males by simply being a powerful female. Also spreading her personal gifts helped the lives of other women who could in turn help others.

This goes into my statement a bit deeper. Your experience may vary.

http://www.themarysue.com/reconsidering-the-feminism-of-joss-whedon/

(I'd go a little further and say any male who outright identifies as a feminist should be considered suspect in their opinions. The fact that I believe that bigotry is wrong does not make me understand the real life plight of society's treatment of certain races and the fact that I have the utmost respect for combat veterans does not mean I know what its like to be in a war zone.)

 
 
 Posted:   Aug 26, 2013 - 1:10 PM   
 By:   Ado   (Member)

The ending never bothered me. It was the movie itself, that took all the interesting ideas that I thought were in the original STAR WARS and threw them in the trashcan, that got my goat. And as much as it became the darling movie of an elite group, including Pauline Kael who hated the first one, I have been delighted that the box office, rentals and sales of EMPIRE has consistently been the least of the first 3 episodes. The audience at least agrees with me.

Morricone,

Empire is certainly the darkest of the first three pictures. It is perhaps equal or second in darkness to Revenge of the Sith, but certainly a better picture as Irvin Kirschner was a real director.

That pretty much explains the box office of the picture. The first Star Wars was pretty straight Saturday matinee throwback, and as such a fun romp, and Return of the Jedi, there is a little turmoil and inner struggle there but it hardly compares the struggles of Luke and finding out your father is the Galactic Satan, and he cuts your hand off too. Additionally, it is probably the deepest dive into the mythos of Jedi spirituality, and that material is a bit amorphous and a bit too non literal for a lot of the bubble gum crowd of the first picture.

Beyond that, box office success rarely identifies the merit or quality of any given picture. Just look at the domestic gross of The Phantom Menace, beyond the first three pictures. And sorry, but that is a trash can lid of a movie all around. If you need further evidence for the lack of correlation between box office just look at the massive money hauls of all the Transformer pictures.

 
 
 Posted:   Aug 26, 2013 - 1:56 PM   
 By:   joan hue   (Member)

Uhtred, I hope Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D is a decent program. Whedon is writing and directing Avengers 2, so he is totally hands-on just like in the first movie; however, he hasn't cast any Buffy/Firefly/Angel vets in that movie.

 
 Posted:   Aug 26, 2013 - 2:08 PM   
 By:   Uhtred   (Member)

Uhtred, I hope Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D is a decent program. Whedon is writing and directing Avengers 2, so he is totally hands-on just like in the first movie; however, he hasn't cast any Buffy/Firefly/Angel vets in that movie.

Sorry Joan, I wasn't too clear in my last post. I was wondering with Joss Whedon making Avengers for the next couple of years, how much he will be involved with the TV show beyond writing and directing the pilot. I know he has some of the writers from Dollhouse involved but hopefully he'll get some of the old gang back to make the show and pop back himself from time to time. Anyway, looking forward to the show and the thread where we can discuss it.

 
 
 Posted:   Aug 26, 2013 - 2:26 PM   
 By:   joan hue   (Member)

Thanks, Uhtred. Now I understand what you meant. Hope Whedon is more involved in this TV show and that it is worthwhile.

 
 Posted:   Aug 26, 2013 - 2:30 PM   
 By:   Justin Boggan   (Member)

He wanted an ending? Well, Whedon, you first -- set by example.


"Buffy the Vamprie Slayer"
No ending. The Sunnydale Hellmouth was closed, that's all. There are other Hellmouth's across the world, as previously stated. And a great deal of demonic activity in Cleveland, so we hear.

The situations and future of all the characters are left in doubt or unresolved, including new characters who never got properly developed.



"Angel"
No ending. Nothing is accomplished. There was no overall bad guy except Wolfram & Hart, and only the corporate building facade in Los angeles, was destroyed. As previously shown in the series, it has offices across the world and that wasn't exactly a make or break location.

There was no over-reaching goal, just a day-to-day battle, fighting the good fight.

The situations and future of all the characters are left in doubt or unresolved (especially if you followed the excellent comic continuation by Whedon). Our heros are left at the beginning of a battle against overwhelming odds.



Same for all his shows. Though I would give "Firefly" a pass since it never got a full season and was cancelled. But the movie, "Serenity", also has no kind of ending (especially considering that was all we were going to get) and leaves all the characters in limbo, except the dead ones.

 
 Posted:   Aug 26, 2013 - 4:50 PM   
 By:   Dyfrynt   (Member)

Serenity has no ending? Seriously??? The story continues the mystery around what-the-heck-is-up-with-River that they just began to explore in more depth when the show was canceled. The movie goes on to wrap up that entire arc.

Mal beats the Alliance in a battle if not the war. The survivors are off heading towards their next adventure. I've rarely seen a movie that had such a satisfying ending.

 
 Posted:   Aug 26, 2013 - 5:03 PM   
 By:   LeHah   (Member)

The problem with Serenity is that its obviously four TV seasons worth of story crammed into 100 minutes.

 
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