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Posted: |
Jun 1, 2015 - 3:59 PM
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By: |
Rnelson
(Member)
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Al the talk about how movies changed and how producer's requirements changed, made me think of how Goldsmith's personal life and attitudes shifted over the years. My personal preference regarding his stylistic period would be late 60's to mid 70's, a period where allegedly Goldsmith's personal life was unsteady. He got divorced, became an alcoholic, got into womanizing (again, allegedly, I didn't know the guy), and was one presumes unhappy and angry. And musically, he was on fire creatively. The old "angry artist" stereotype. By the late 80's his life was much more stable, a good second marriage, successful grown children, his vices in check. And his work started to streamline. The early 90's were supposed to be a little discouraging to him, as he had several scores get rejected in succession, which may have led to a less intense attitude.
I've joked to a friend of mine that I wish I could go back to him in the late 90's every morning before he started work, and kick him in the shins. Just to get him nice and cross. Then let him work it out with his music. He just got a little too happy, and the music got more peaceful.
That was a good comment. In fact, it reflects pretty closely with a theory Lukas Kendall had about how Goldsmith's private life factored into his art. I think that was in the print Goldsmith Tribute issue of FSM after his passing but Lukas broke Goldsmith's creative periods down the way you did and compared his style and approach during those periods to what was going on in his personal life.
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Posted: |
Jun 1, 2015 - 5:24 PM
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By: |
Chris Avis
(Member)
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I started discovering film music in the mid-90s and Goldsmith's works dating from that time were some of the first in my collection. Even with that 'bias', there's no question to my mind that this was overall the weakest period of his career. Goldsmith's prime years as far as I'm concerned, extended from the mid-60s to the mid-80s. He begins to lose me in the mid-80s with the overuse (in my opinion) of electronics; by the early 90s, the electronics are less obtrusive, but the work, as a whole, is less inspired.
That said, I still think there's a number of scores from that period that can be counted amongst his best, namely Star Trek V, The Ghost and the Darkness, The Edge, First Knight and Medicine Man and there's a decent amount of perfectly enjoyable, if not quite top drawer scores from this period as well. But there's just no way that the latter part of Goldsmith's career can stack up in terms of innovation and creativity with the earlier years.
I'm not quite sure what's behind this recent spate of revised opinions on some of the lesser works from the 90s in particular. Back in the day I couldn't understand why anyone particularly enjoyed Deep Rising, Warlock or US Marshalls to give some specific examples, and I still can't. I suppose modern film music has sunk to such a low that these would be considered career highlights for many contemporary composers. If so, it's yet another sign of how far this artform has fallen.
P.S. Schiffy, you're not the only one that has a hard time with Total Recall. It's a score I have a hell of a lot of respect for, but it's never fully clicked with me, aside from the great Mars material (e.g. The Mutant).
Chris.
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I can't believe no one has made this joke - I guess it's up to me.
Gadzooks, Schiffy - you were right! You DO have Total Recall total recall!
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Posted: |
Jun 1, 2015 - 8:37 PM
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By: |
Sirusjr
(Member)
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I listened to "Total Recall" in total today, and for whatever reason, it still fails to engage me. Purely a gut response. It's busy, it sure is busy, but it never connects with me. And then I put on "The Salamander," and was captivated the entire time.
My point is not to say "I'm right, 'Total Recall' stinks!," because A) it doesn't stink (it just isn't my thing); B) there is no right and wrong here; C) if there were, I'd probably be wrong. My point is only that this Goldsmith fanatic probably won't be listening to this one again for a good long time.
I'm just glad from this thread that I'm not the only one who wasn't particularly grabbed by the music of Total Recall. It has yet to ever grab me (and I enjoyed the film) and is often described as a masterpiece but I could never get into it.
I also agree that generally the music before the 90s is more interesting from Goldsmith. I think The Edge, Forever Young, Rudy, and Mulan are the only few I really can get into. Part of it is that connection to a certain traditional sound that largely was abandoned as he got closer to the end of his career. Plenty of 80s soundtracks had the same problems.
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Well you should really give The Shadow a listen in complete form. It's a revelation.
Yavar
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This isn't strictly on-topic, but thanks to this thread, I ordered the CDs for Breakout, High Velocity and Cabo Blanco, all I had somehow never managed to pick up until now. I have spent a wonderful afternoon getting my chores done whilst listening to some real fun Jerry Goldsmith scores.
I have also re-discovered why I love Total Recall so much. It may not be everyone's thing, but it certainly is mine!!!
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That's awesome. I'm glad more people are discovering those underrated but incredible scores.
For me, since I'm so obsessed with Goldsmith's westerns, I sort of consider these very Hispanic-tinged scores honorary westerns and close cousins of stuff like 100 Rifles.
Yavar
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Bad Girls, now there's a score I hadn't thought about or listened to for years. I put it on today and it's not a bad score. Actually it's a lot better than I remember it... I suspect the last time I tried to listened to it I probably didn't get past the lull in the middle of "The Hanging." I feel like The Edge or First Young go over most of the ground that Bad Girls covers in an overall better package.
My music collection keeps growing, probably at least six hours a month. So little of it do I actually go back and enjoy long term. When I want to hear '90s Goldsmith I'm usually reaching for First Knight, The Edge, Total Recall, or Rudy.
If anything, after a bit of sampling '90s Goldsmith today, I am rethinking my feelings on some of Bruce Botnick's work. There's a lot of weird reverb in his '90s recordings, and I particularly hate that distant percussion sound (listen to those muddy snares in "End of a Dream") that Goldsmith apparently was in love with.
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Isn't Total Recall an 80's score?
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I came of age and started buying Goldsmith records in the magical year of 1978, when we got Coma, The Swarm, Capricorn One, Damien Omen II and Magic all in one go (although we had to wait a long time for Magic to come out). The next decade or so was such a thrill ride, one masterpiece after the next. When the 90's rolled around Jerry's style had changed, and yeah anything would seem like a come down after so many works of genius. If the ponytail era was all we ever got, Jerry would have a proud place in history. But for some of us who caught the bug early (and I'm often jealous of those who were on board even earlier in the 60's), those years just naturally felt more exciting and groundbreaking than Jerry's later career.
My experience in becoming involved with Jerry Goldsmith is identical to this, and my sentiments could not be more in line with this post. In 1978, CAPRICORN ONE got me looking for his name in the credits on movie posters, and THE BOYS FROM BRAZIL and MAGIC sealed the deal. I began to notice film music in older movies I watched on television, and it was uncanny how many times I'd get locked in to a main title theme and then note that Goldsmith was the composer in the "music by" credit. So I found a good mail order record outlet in South Carolina and began back-tracking Goldsmith LP titles released prior to 1978.
Like any artist, his style evolved with time. His 60's scores defined his thematic and dramatic abilities, and he became a little more bold and detailed in expressing his musical ideas in the 70's. Then the synth period came in the 80's, as it did in all music idioms, followed by the oft discussed simplification of his approach in the 90's.
But the 70's to me represent his high mark in originality and listenability. 1978 was indeed a magical year.
SCOTT
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Posted: |
Aug 1, 2015 - 1:09 PM
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By: |
ian64
(Member)
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Although I don't find the Total Recall score a feast for the senses, I'm fascinated by the structure of it, and I refute the notion that those parts written for the action sequences are similar lumps of noise. They're forceful, yes, but different in approach and written with a complexity that most modern film scores today wouldn't know how to replicate. The trouble is that the music was written for a lively, enjoyable yet cold, heartless and abrasive film in which any human connect is as deep as the worst-written daytime soap. Goldsmith seemed to concentrate on the action mechanics (and the opportunity to write what sounds to me like some kind of action ballet - no bad thing, whatsoever) because any human element to hang onto didn't exist.
As for the man himself, I came into listening to his scores towards the end of the '70s after becoming acquainted with bits and bobs while watching movies like Capricorn One and The Omen, on a sort of curiosity-led 'hmm, this is very interesting' basis. After that, it was a kind of journey, with or without the need to buy a soundtrack album, a layman way of doing things rather than a hunger to frequent any specialised record store. Even so, from a sort of distance, that's how I came to admire the man's talent and ability. I can see why people could steer away, rather than outright dismiss, his 90's output, although there are still moments and passages from those scores that engage me as much as those from earlier works. He could rest on laurels, yes, but his talent and experience still rewarded at certain points. He was no slouch, even if specific later scores could lead people to think he was.
But I look from a standpoint of seeing Goldsmith's work as a whole, from his early scores like Freud or Lonely Are The Brave, to Hollow Man or the unbelievably bright and joyous Looney Tunes, and see a man who filled one life's career with enough output to fill three. I started at one point of his life in film music and was very interested in what came before that, and wasn't disappointed with what I found. The context of looking at the entire canvas of Goldsmith's works, so vivid and different and varied in every way, has made me entirely understand and reconcile those parts of his career where he probably could've done better or didn't entirely step up to the plate. My personal bugbear with Goldsmith was the 80s, where his choice in movies was almost chaotically erratic at a time where composers like John Williams or even the burgeoning James Horner were being continually attached to A-list projects. It was almost as if Goldsmith was launching a war on good taste, his prolific approach steering him away from filmmakers of repute to journeymen who relied on him than the other way around.
But that's old ground. What's really heartening, however, is that Goldsmith is the gift that keeps on giving: there's still some scores that I haven't got around to hearing yet and I look forward to those discoveries. Some people listen to one period of his output and determine his talent and ability through that, but that's a little too simplistic an approach and they're missing out on a lot - and I mean a lot - that would otherwise possibly make them change their minds. Goldsmith is much more than that.
This thread has been critical about Goldsmith, but on a bracing foundation of understanding. Whether I've contributed to that quality is arguable, but the discussions put forward have been a rewarding read.
Carry on.
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Posted: |
Aug 1, 2015 - 1:53 PM
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By: |
Ny
(Member)
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The trouble is that the music was written for a lively, enjoyable yet cold, heartless and abrasive film in which any human connect is as deep as the worst-written daytime soap. Goldsmith seemed to concentrate on the action mechanics (and the opportunity to write what sounds to me like some kind of action ballet - no bad thing, whatsoever) because any human element to hang onto didn't exist.
I'd have to disagree here, Total recall is very heavily an action movie first, but I think there are many human touches in there, deft as well as clumsy, and the supporting characters are for the most part quite weighty in terms of identity for the amount of screen time they get. Also the film has, IMO, the purest example in cinema of Philip K. Dick's area of emotional expertise - palpable fear that world around you is staged and not real - in the scene where Arnold is convinced he's still asleep at rekall and asked to take the pill that will wake him up - this whole concept is very human, and vulnerable, and deeply felt by me and I'm sure many others when Verhoeven's camera sinks dramatically to the ground with Arnold's realization that what the man is saying actually makes perfect sense.
Goldsmith does stick mainly to the action I agree, and I do find the whole C&C presentation a bit hammering to listen to, but I'd say there's plenty of feeling in tracks like The Mountain and The Mutant, feelings of overwhelming awe and devoted struggle interwoven with the sci-fi grandeur.
Overall, for me Goldsmith was always a strictly Hollywood composer, and, in terms of sincerity at least, that meant a lot more in the sixties and seventies than it did in subsequent decades.
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