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Posted: |
May 18, 2015 - 10:28 PM
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By: |
pp312
(Member)
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pp132, you're entitled to your opinion, but if you did go back to Culver City in the 40's I'd want to be there, too, to reassure Mr. Stothart that you don't speak for all of us movie music lovers. But then, the Stothart dichotomy has been a pretty steady staple here at the FSM Board for many years now...
If we're to believe Andre Previn it's hard to be certain exactly what Stothart wrote and what he got others to, if not write for him at least make sound a lot better than it would have otherwise. But I pride myself on recognising true Stothart when I hear it, and it's no great skill.
Sorry, Preston, but we're irreconcilable on this one. There are 3 composers I absolutely can't abide: Stothart, Malcolm Arnold and Leonard Rosenman, but Stothart definitely leads the pack.
(Incidentally, it's pp312, not 132. I have an odd recollection of going through this once before).
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Sorry I was dyslexic once before, and sorry I was dyslexic once again. I hope and trust you know it was unintentional, with no disrespect intended.
Of course we're irreconcilable on Stothart, pp, that was sort of the whole point I was trying to make, in a live-and-let-live kind of way. Like the fellow said, "It's a difference of opinion that makes horse races." But hey, at least we're simpatico on one point: I, too, pride myself on being able to recognize Stothart's music.
As for Previn on Stothart, is that a reference to the maestro's memoir, NO MINOR CHORDS? You realize, of course, that if you accept the accusation that Stothart made much use of other composers -- like Alfred Newman and many another big studio music director -- then you place yourself in the contradictory position of, on the one hand, recognizing and deploring Stothart's personal style, and on the other hand, of claiming that that style was the work of artists other than Stothart.
In any case, I personally feel that you've placed Stothart in excellent company when you list him with Arnold and Rosenman, fine musicians both, and not just IMHO. If you'd care to elaborate, I'd be curious to know what in particular rubs you the wrong way about each of those other two. I'd appreciate it, and of course there can be no "wrong answer," just your forthright opinion(s).
Thanking you in advance, respectfully,
PNJ
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Posted: |
May 19, 2015 - 5:30 AM
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By: |
pp312
(Member)
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Sorry I was dyslexic once before, and sorry I was dyslexic once again. I hope and trust you know it was unintentional, with no disrespect intended.
Of course we're irreconcilable on Stothart, pp, that was sort of the point I was intending, in a live-and-let-live kind of way. Like the fellow said, "It's a difference of opinion that makes horse races." But hey, at least we're simpatico on one point: I, too, pride myself on being able to recognize Stothart's music.
As for Previn on Stothart, is that a reference to the maestro's memoir, NO MINOR CHORDS? You realize, of course, that if you accept the accusation that Stothart made much use of other composers -- like Alfred Newman and many another big studio music director -- then you place yourself in the contradictory position of, on the one hand, recognizing and deploring Stothart's personal style, and on the other hand, of claiming that that style was the work of artists other than Stothart.
In any case, I personally feel that you've placed Stothart in excellent company when you list him with Arnold and Rosenman, fine musicians both and not just IMHO. If you'd care to elaborate, I'd be curious to know what in particular rubs you the wrong way about each of those other two. I'd appreciate it, and of course there can be no "wrong answer," just your forthright opinion(s).
Thanking you in advance, respectfully,
PNJ
Your dyslexia is forgiven, Preston, as are all your other sins, not excluding even your love of Stothart. Pax Vobiscum!
There's no contradiction (and yes, I was referring to No Minor Chords). I don't doubt Stothart wrote some attractive tunes (though none spring to mind right now); he wouldn't have been employed by MGM for so long otherwise. My beef is with his incidentally scoring, which seems to me so witheringly saccharine, sentimentalising scenes that not only didn't need but couldn't stand such treatment. By the 40s the harder edge that composers like Rozsa and Herrmann were bringing to film music was showing up this kind of style for the anachronism it had already become. As I say, I don’t doubt he could write a jolly tune, and even an effective dramatic Main Title here and there (though as Previn suggests, he did make full use of his minions), but his ability to subtly support the drama through appropriate and effective development of his themes without become cloying was to my ears extremely limited.
As for Arnold and Rosenman, to me the two shared a similar failing in their reliance on progressively rising chords to suggest tension or drama, without again sufficient development. Arnold could certainly write a rousing tune (I especially enjoyed The Roots Of Heaven), but when it came to the incidental music he seemed to fall into a pattern of laziness, relying on these rising chords in place of actual composition. Rosenman ditto. I’ve enjoyed parts of Rosenman scores like East of Eden and Star Trek IV, but he just falls back too often on those progressive chords.
Okay, I’m ready for the beating from Rosenman/Arnold fans. Lay on, McDuff.
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I guess I'd like a truckload of 1940s scores in *modern* recordings, like e.g. Bernard Herrmann's Anna and the King of Siam in all its mock-gamelan splendor (Yes, I know there's a short suite on Varèse). I simply cannot listen to the OST of this and many others.
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Well, it his defense, it's probably really obscure. ;-)
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I'll forgive you, too, pp, since the few Arnold and Rosenman scores you tolerate are amomg my all-time favorites.
(Incidentally, for the record, my two favorite Stotharts are both fantasies, THE WIZARD OF OZ and the aforementioned PICTURE OF DORIAN GRAY.)
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Posted: |
May 19, 2015 - 6:53 PM
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By: |
pp312
(Member)
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There's no contradiction (and yes, I was referring to No Minor Chords). I don't doubt Stothart wrote some attractive tunes (though none spring to mind right now); he wouldn't have been employed by MGM for so long otherwise. My beef is with his incidentally scoring, which seems to me so witheringly saccharine, sentimentalising scenes that not only didn't need but couldn't stand such treatment.
It seems to me you're selectively applying your film music predilections against Stothart. If you want to listen to "hard edge" music attend the concert hall, because film music was always many years behind in style.
Stothart was a skilled film composer who knew what the public and MGM wanted and gave it to them. His music is no more "saccharine" than Newman's or Steiner's or dozens of other film composers of the period. If you want to gauge Stothart's ability and the "hard edge" he could deliver watch 1933's "Night Flight." Of course, MGM apparently didn't like the "hard edge" and dialed out many of the cues.
I tend to agree, and consequently the 30s and early 40s is not my favourite period for scores. Newman's high strings were often hard to take in the wrong context, and Steiner...well, Steiner was always Steiner. It's just that Stothart seemed particularly adept at laying on the sugar.
I wouldn't agree that either Rozsa's or Herrmann's first scores were in any way saccharine. (Maybe that's why a studio exec once rather snidely told Rozsa his music belonged in Carnegie Hall). Together they helped sweep away the Viennese schmaltz that dominated the sound of 30s movies, especially at MGM.
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Unless I missed it, there doesn't seem to be much love for Herbert Stothart around here.
I'd love to have his scores to National Velvet (1944) and Picture Of Dorian Gray (1945) on CD and while we're at it, George Bassman's lovely score to The Clock (1945) too.
AFAIR most of DORIAN GRAY was composed by Mario Castelnuovo-Tedesco, ghosting for Stothart.
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Thanks for clarifying your pertinent point about DR. JAWS AND MR. HYDE. (I figured that's what you probably meant, but I hate to make an assumption if I can help it.)
***
ESCAPE ME NEVER may never have been released on records in its entirety, but we certainly should mention that it rubs shoulders with ANOTHER DAWN on one of the great Marco Polo Morgan/Stromberg CD's.
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