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 Posted:   Nov 13, 2017 - 2:15 PM   
 By:   WagnerAlmighty   (Member)

I'm relieved, WA, you like David And Bathsheba. I haven't really hit the nail with the hammer all that hard, however, when Kritzerland presented their release initially, I mentioned the tambourine had a lot of attention in the score. I'm not at all certain if the tamb had more emphasis in other typical productions, but it's there in buckets and spades in D & B, relatively speaking.

There's also one more thing which I tried to throw in as a point of discussion and that is right at the start of the D & B MT, you've got the orchestral double entrant statement. In the first brass flourish, the tamb more or less is timed to coincide with all else. In the second, there is an interesting delay tactic used in bringing in the second brass statement. The question is, the tamb in that second statement is slightly out of synch because it comes in advance of the brass. Is this a mistake on the part of the tamb, or was it actually intended that way? That quirk gives the orchestra's entry slightly extra flavor as a result, or, so methinks. Originally, I had wondered whether these slightly unorthodox techniques of, perhaps, deliberately mistiming certain orchestral cues might have had some underlying stylistic architectural motivation/consideration?


I think that might be the old musician's technique; namely driving the other instruments by laying ahead of the beat. One can hear the technique a lot (though inverted) in Popular Music, where the vocalist will start singing a millisecond after the beat, so it sounds like the whole band is driving him/her (same with guitar solos). A great example is Back in Black, hear how driven the singer sounds by the rest of the band. He's laying back.

As far as liking David and Bathsheba, I can't see anyone who loves film music not liking that album. I know there's another CD of it out there (or two), but I've fallen so hard for the Kritzerland. It's an awesome score, highly recommended to anyone.

 
 Posted:   Nov 13, 2017 - 2:39 PM   
 By:   Grecchus   (Member)

I sort of mention that because it was Newman himself who pioneered the art and technique of stubbing in the music on top of the picture. By the way, apparently, I'm the 294,806,149 th person to click Back In Black on YT!

 
 
 Posted:   Nov 13, 2017 - 3:59 PM   
 By:   joan hue   (Member)

Alfred Newman was an amazing composer. You will discover many gorgeous film scores by him.
Also, he was a man who could compose for any genre: religious, epic, dramatic, western, dramatic, etc.

What I admire most about him is how his scores evolved over decades. The first time I noticed him was when I was watching on TCM the 1939 version of Wuthering Heights. His “Cathy’s Theme” is superb and lovely.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQn50nmt4mA

I thought this score was stunning and scored in the style prevalent in the 30’s and 40’s. Over time, his scores changed to fit with the current decades. You have already heard the marvelous How The West Was Won, which I think has a 60’s sound. It is a rousing, timeless score.

During the late 50’s and 60’s, we had Moross, Bernstein, Goldsmith and others scoring westerns. Rhythms were changing in The Magnificent Seven and in The Big Country, and Newman adapted to these new sounds as seen in his main theme for the 1966 movie, Nevada Smith.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYNOw7iiZLE

His final score was for the 1970 movie Airport. I feel it was VERY MODERN and in sync with the times. In fact I think it is ahead of its time. It captures tension, excitement, and the big city and airport hustle and bustle.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-58Z6FG4h0

If you listen to Nevada Smith and Airport, they don’t sound like Wuthering Heights. Sure they have different narratives, but I think Newman was always open and receptive to the changing times. One thing I’m glad he didn’t do was toss out throughout the decades his ability to compose grand themes.

 
 
 Posted:   Nov 14, 2017 - 1:54 PM   
 By:   filmusicnow   (Member)

I always felt that Newman got a bad rap when he was criticized for having his scores dominated by a series of variations on one theme. This may be true, but at least it helped the film dramatically. I like dhis scores for "Airport", "The Hunchback Of Notre Dame", "How The West Was Won", "The Robe" and "The Diary Of Anne Frank". Newman was a great composer and a fine administrator who understood music, and helped Bernard Herrmann, David Raksin, Jerry Goldsmith and Dominic Frontiere early in their careers.

 
 Posted:   Nov 14, 2017 - 2:28 PM   
 By:   WagnerAlmighty   (Member)

I always felt that Newman got a bad rap when he was criticized for having his scores dominated by a series of variations on one theme. This may be true, but at least it helped the film dramatically. I like dhis scores for "Airport", "The Hunchback Of Notre Dame", "How The West Was Won", "The Robe" and "The Diary Of Anne Frank". Newman was a great composer and a fine administrator who understood music, and helped Bernard Herrmann, David Raksin, Jerry Goldsmith and Dominic Frontiere early in their careers.

And Herrmann did a lot of sequencing of variations as well. Hell, neither of them were even as repetitious as Mozart, if ya wanna get down to it.

 
 Posted:   Nov 14, 2017 - 3:01 PM   
 By:   panphoto   (Member)

An appreciation of Alfred Newman's work in my view is the sign of a film-music brahmin. Of the standout scores not listed above I personally put 'Love is a Many Splendored Thing' at the top. This is by far Newman's most emotionally charged non-religious score. The film seems a little stilted by today's standards of course, but the music is anything but - it's a masterclass in the potentialities of film-music.
I like to think of a film score, pre-sixties of course, as a fragmented symphonic poem with a richness of melodic ideas characteristic of the classical late romantics. LMST has a profligate superabundance of such developed motifs. The Kritzerland CD has the best sound but the Varese has Nick Redman's incomparable notes. Also, don't overlook 'Prince of Foxes', 'Dragonwyck', 'The Keys to the Kingdom' ..... ah, the list goes on and on!

 
 Posted:   Nov 14, 2017 - 3:09 PM   
 By:   WILLIAMDMCCRUM   (Member)

There's a ton of music not on the 3CD but still on the OST, for example the other-worldly choral music for the Palm Sunday sequence just before the album Hosanna composition kicks in.

It's worth pointing out Newman's debt to Samuel Barber's Adagio for Strings in the main theme.

 
 Posted:   Nov 14, 2017 - 3:22 PM   
 By:   'Lenny Bruce' Marshall   (Member)

why has nobody recorded/released DODSWORTH?
my fave score /theme of AN
????
huh?
b

 
 Posted:   Nov 14, 2017 - 5:08 PM   
 By:   WagnerAlmighty   (Member)

There's a ton of music not on the 3CD but still on the OST, for example the other-worldly choral music for the Palm Sunday sequence just before the album Hosanna composition kicks in.

It's worth pointing out Newman's debt to Samuel Barber's Adagio for Strings in the main theme.


It can be such a heartrending theme during its many variations and instrumental combinations. I listened to the Ryko for the ninth time since receiving it four days ago. I mostly listen to the second and third discs.

Greatly looking forward to my upcoming Alfred haul of CDs. I had a ball listening to maestro Rozsa's All the Men Were Valiant earlier today, tonight Rozsa conducts Rozsa op. 19.

 
 
 Posted:   Nov 15, 2017 - 10:17 AM   
 By:   jskoda   (Member)

Also, don't forget Newman as an adapter and conductor of the music of others. The Capitol/Angel soundtrack albums from CAROUSEL and THE KING AND I, especially, are superb.

 
 
 Posted:   Nov 17, 2017 - 5:13 AM   
 By:   Graham Watt   (Member)



It's worth pointing out Newman's debt to Samuel Barber's Adagio for Strings in the main theme.


One of my early memories is holding the microphone up to the TV for the End Titles of TGSET and actually trembling - not because the music was so great (which it is) - but because the telly rarely showed the complete End Titles, especially if they were lengthy as in this case. I was so happy when the Beeb let the whole thing roll. Anyway, the point of this is that when I later heard Barber's Adagio, I immediately thought that he'd copied Alfred Newman. That's what happens when you're ten years old and living in a film music bubble.

And another inconsequential rabbit is that, due to my low purchase rate, there'll still be things on my "wants" list when I pop my clogs. I originally had on order THE EGYPTIAN, but there's a delay on that so I wanted to substitute it for something else meanwhile. Just browsing the old FSM releases alone I noticed a ton of stuff I'd "forgotten" to get. And so it came to pass that I stopped by THE BRAVADOS. Oh yes, another collaboration, this time with Hugo Friedhofer. Old Hugo is amongst my faves, higher than Newman, and higher than Herrmann actually, but I'd completely forgotten that THE BRAVADOS was co-written by Newman and Friedhofer. So I ordered it.

It had better be good or I'll kick your heads in.

 
 Posted:   Nov 19, 2017 - 7:01 AM   
 By:   WagnerAlmighty   (Member)

One of the best things for me about the mighty Greatest Story Ever Told is how decent the actual recording (Ryko) is, especially when compared to both the Song of Bernadette and Diary of Anne Frank. The fact that the last two, widely acclaimed scores haven't been treated to a re-recording in over four decades is a slam to all film score lovers. It literally baffles me why this hasn't happened.

Master Rozsa has and is having (deservedly) re-treatment done to his scores. The abovementioned scores are long overdue for Newman.

Granted, I have the (wretched) Tsunami recording of Song of Bernadette, but I haven't heard wildly better sound from the Varese (though my listening has been under the hypercompressed youtube banner).

I am still curious, given my having fallen ridiculously in love with GSET, if I should grab the Varese CD of it anyway (despite what most people have told me is a practically identical sound, the Varese is getting mentioned a lot as being overall better, warmer, thicker CD).

 
 Posted:   Nov 19, 2017 - 7:04 AM   
 By:   WagnerAlmighty   (Member)

As far as the Barber thing and GSET, I can't count how many times a composer has heard something contemporary and used it as a springboard for genius. It also helps to make something more engaging to the contemporary listener via familiarity. I personally don't have a problem with it, and it's obvious Alfred made no secret of it. It worked.

There's so much more to that score than "just" that one phrase...

TONS more.

 
 
 Posted:   Nov 19, 2017 - 9:50 AM   
 By:   Graham Watt   (Member)

W. Almighty - I don't think anyone was criticising Alfred Newman for leaning on the Barber piece. Nothing exists in a vacuum and now that I'm older and (slightly) wiser, I too see the many recognised "influences" in hundreds of film scores as totally normal, and in many ways it has increased my insight into what makes a specific composer tick. There have been a million threads about this subject. I actually get quite a thrill out of hearing and identifying (sometimes wrongly) the inspiration behind a particular score, or part of a score. It might even just be a short phrase, or a cluster of horns.

Regarding THE DIARY OF ANNE FRANK, I'm sure I read - maybe earlier in this very thread - that there's a new release coming out soon. I don't think it's a re-recording, but I'm sure it'll be remastered. We'll see (hear) how it sounds in due course, if the announcement is correct. Varese's SONG OF BERNADETTE sounds a bit rough in places, especially in the lengthy first track, "Overture" (which is I believe missing from your beermat copy), but it settles down. We could spend the rest of our lives lamenting the fact that there are no state-of-the-art rerecordings of these scores but the reality is it might never happen, so I try to enjoy what there is. I have a little mind-game which helps me to enjoy archival-sounding recordings. It's a piece of history captured on disc. That's Newman conducting, those are the actual musicians who played what we're hearing now, and it's from November 12th 1943 (for example). It's like the aural equivalent of an old newsreel. Irreplaceable.

I've been playing THE ROBE over and over all weekend. I never tire of it. I'm not religious, but Newman's music is so inspiring that it makes me want to be a better person. Surely that's Art, with a capital A. Just a little ramble here - In the vocal track "The Resurrection", singer Carole Richards put me in mind of Nichelle Nichols as Lt. Uhura taunting young Charlie X with her singing in the episode of the same name from the original STAR TREK series. Knowing that Fred Steiner, who wrote the score for that episode and arranged the songs, had more than a casual acquaintance with Alfred Newman's music, I wondered if it was a little homage. Or maybe just something that came naturally, but perhaps with THE ROBE as the "unconscious" inspiration. Whatever, I like musing over these little scenarios,

Awaiting my copy of FSM's release of the THE BRAVADOS (co-composed with the great Hugo Friedhofer). This is one that I really wanted to go into blind, or deaf, in that I deliberately avoided hearing any of it beforehand. Sometimes it can be an expensive gamble which doesn't pay off, but sometimes the excitement's worth it. Last night I couldn't resist clicking on the film on YouTube. Gosh, those Main Titles are great. And then I clicked on the Main Titles for THE GUNFIGHTER and.. Gosh! Those Main Titles are great. And extremely similar to THE BRAVADOS. And I was happy because it was Alfred Newman being true to form and reworking the same ideas under a different guise. No complaints from me about hearing Alf Newman reusing his own material, or putting 5% of Samuel Barber into portions of his score for TGSET, or Jerry Goldsmith "doing" Bartók or Stravisnsky, even Rachmaninoff in STAR TREK:THE MOTION PICTURE, or Jerry Fielding showing his love for Lutoslawski in a dozen scores.

I don't know if the above was very coherent. I was in a kind of stream-of-consciousness mode, and will hit "Post" without checking it and correcting it. I do love living dangerously.

 
 Posted:   Nov 19, 2017 - 10:07 AM   
 By:   WagnerAlmighty   (Member)

W. Almighty - I don't think anyone was criticising Alfred Newman for leaning on the Barber piece. Nothing exists in a vacuum and now that I'm older and (slightly) wiser, I too see the many recognised "influences" in hundreds of film scores as totally normal, and in many ways it has increased my insight into what makes a specific composer tick. There have been a million threads about this subject. I actually get quite a thrill out of hearing and identifying (sometimes wrongly) the inspiration behind a particular score, or part of a score. It might even just be a short phrase, or a cluster of horns.

I didn't take the mention of Barber's adagio as anything but simple statement of fact. I have read negative comments from other sites regarding that, but none of said sites were as maturely moderated as this one.

Mozart himself borrowed Haydn's forms (and quite a few melodies and harmonic combinations) throughout his life, and not too little from Bach and Handel as well (the latter mostly in his later years). Many musicologists feel his heavy borrowing was a simple matter of his youth and trying to forge his own way through the old; had he lived longer he probably would have forged his own style more (btw Beethoven did the same thing in regard to emulating both Haydn and Mozart's works, putting an end to all that with op. 59 at the age of 36...a year older than Mozart was when he tragically passed away).

So all this talk about self-plagiarization and borrowing gets kind of silly to me; most of the time the most adamantly vocal about those issues is a failed or unsuccessful composer.

Or perhaps I did get a little defensive, if so allow me to apologize, as the music one loves can make one feel that way. GSET has had the same impact on me as my earth-shattering other favorites like Vertigo, Fahrenheit 451, Close Encounters, Capricorn One, and Ben-Hur do: I'm fantastically inspired...in this case, especially moved to write slowly unfolding string ensemble melodies. I wish Alfred was around for me to thank smile

 
 Posted:   Nov 20, 2017 - 3:02 PM   
 By:   Yavar Moradi   (Member)

Sorry I'm chiming in to this so late...Alfred Newman ties with Miklos Rozsa as my favorite Golden Age composer (I cheat a little with Bernard Herrmann by classing him as more of a Silver Age guy ahead of his time).

Interestingly, there is a decent amount of Alfred Newman's output which doesn't do a whole lot for me...early on in career he often came off as a Steiner or Korngold copycat; usually rather than embracing the new as other American composers did he imitated the old world romanticism. Wuthering Heights is probably the best example of this period in his output, and even though it's good I don't rate it anywhere near his later output. I do also admittedly enjoy some of his early swashbuckling scores like The Black Swan, The Prisoner of Zenda, and The Mark of Zorro (the latter co-composed with the great Hugo Friedhofer), but there is a marked improvement over these late 30s/early 40s scores when you even compare them with post-war efforts from the latter half of the 40s. Somehow over the course of the decade he learned a lot, his sound matured into a really unique and great compositional voice, and he really became the Alfred Newman I love. My absolute favorites of his:

1. Captain from Castile -- I grew up with this very good film which is absolutely raised in excellence due to its amazing score. If I had to pick something to call Newman's magnum opus, it would be this. Epic in scope, with no less than a dozen great and distinct different themes, spanning various styles and cultures of music. Like Rozsa, he researched the hell out of authentic Spanish and Native American music before tackling this masterpiece, and it really shows in the authentic feel of many cues. I will admit I find the main love theme in this one a little syrupy for my taste, but most people adore it and there is a secondary love theme that I just find incredibly gorgeous. Add to that a heartbreaking family theme on the tragic level of Rozsa's from Ben-Hur, a stirring and original Conquest march which was so iconic that it became the USC football fight song, played by their marching band at every game, a villainous theme for the Inquisition that's pretty much Alfred Newman's Imperial March, and a kick-ass main title theme which is however virtually impossible to hum (I've tried, believe me)...and that's just scratching the surface. It also has, for my money, the single best and most breathlessly exciting action cue ever composed in the Golden Age of Hollywood: De Vargas Family Escape. And thankfully, there is an incredible deluxe release of the complete score (sans one cue, the exciting but brief Prologue that you'll just have to watch the film to hear) from Screen Archives, with an amazing liner notes booklet and the score sounding pretty amazing for 1947. This is important because I'm with you in that Newman's style is difficult to capture in modern recordings (particularly the strings)...though as a rare exception the Stromberg/Morgan recording of The Robe actually succeeds quite admirably.

2. The Robe, David and Bathsheba, and The Egyptian -- you already know about these so I'm cheating and lumping them together since they have a similar great ancient sound, very influential on some Basil Poledouris scores we both like.

3. The Counterfeit Traitor -- this one (released by Kritzerland) is just thrilling and badass -- listen to the sound clips.

4. A Man Called Peter -- This one is just lovely and really overlooked so I wanted to give you a heads up about it if you like Newman's religious (though not period) sound. The FSM does incorporate a lot of source music into the main program so I found I enjoyed it more when I edited a playlist out of the score portions, but I just adore it.

5. The President's Lady -- This one's rather overlooked and underrated but it's fantastic.

Strong honorable mentions to The Keys of the Kingdom (Screen Archives again), How Green Was My Valley (get the Kritzerland), Prince of Foxes (took a little while to grow on me but I eventually succumbed to its lovely Italianate charms), Anastasia (gorgeous main theme), A Certain Smile (LLL had this on a great sale for a while but I think it finally sold out...it's just beautiful though I wish Newman didn't have to adapt the title song not composed by him; his own love theme in the score is much better). How the West Was Won is perhaps my single favorite Alfred Newman theme.

The famous All About Eve leaves me a little cold, honestly...not that it's bad. I get tired of the main theme in Diary of Anne Frank a little bit but there's a secondary theme which appears much less frequently which is just heartstoppingly gorgeous. But honestly you pretty much can't go wrong...the earlier Newman scores I'm not as crazy about also haven't survived the years for the most part.

Yavar

 
 Posted:   Nov 21, 2017 - 6:27 AM   
 By:   WILLIAMDMCCRUM   (Member)



So all this talk about self-plagiarization and borrowing gets kind of silly to me; most of the time the most adamantly vocal about those issues is a failed or unsuccessful composer.





You'll find that the people here who criticise these things do so from a perspective of modern temp-track boredom. Many films are tracked with temporary music scores by music editors for spotting purposes, for evaluation of a scene dramatically in terms of pacing, and even for preview screenings in front of test audiences. It became very obvious some years ago that temp-track was being retained (2001 is an extreme example) by directors, or was being used as templates for the composers who were told, 'I like this effect: stick as close as you can to that' by directors. The original thematic lifts were never credited.

Often the composers themselves were disheartened by this, but had to comply or be replaced themselves. It was passed off as 'hommage' of course, but it wasn't always so, and the contexts belied it. An ironic tragi-comic piece from Lt. Kije would suddenly (slightly disguised) turn up in a melancholic scene set in ancient Rome or something devoid of context. So how is that homage? Film music is about CONTEXT. It was music that simply fitted in terms of pace and texture. A film-music homage is not so simple as a pure classical homage. MEANING is involved.

As regards the baroque or early classical examples, it's not the same you know. When everything is new and nothing has yet been tried, it's not really plagiarism when composers use similar harmonic structure or progressions from a still limited set of templates, especially when there are as yet still unbroken RULES. Who was the first to use, say, a set of gruppetti to elaborate a tune? Did all others then plagiarise him? Are we to say that every composer who ever lived borrows from that caveman who first got two notes to follow one-another with his ram's horn? In law, plagiarism is about melody.

Those early composers didn't have the infinite luxury of today's post-modern and post-impressionistic of range of choices. They had rules that still hadn't been broken.

Plus, the reason folk here collect this sort of music is because it's good as a stand-alone experience outside the film. As Herrmann said, music of very poor quality 'can also be very effective in a film'. But for these stand-alone fans you meet here, patchwork quilts of borrowings without originality are ... well, they are what they are.

Even Herr Zimmer hates temp-track theft:


https://jonnyelwyn.co.uk/film-and-video-editing/hans-zimmer-composing-masterclass-an-editors-review/

 
 Posted:   Nov 21, 2017 - 7:36 AM   
 By:   WagnerAlmighty   (Member)

Sorry I'm chiming in to this so late...Alfred Newman ties with Miklos Rozsa as my favorite Golden Age composer (I cheat a little with Bernard Herrmann by classing him as more of a Silver Age guy ahead of his time).

Interestingly, there is a decent amount of Alfred Newman's output which doesn't do a whole lot for me...early on in career he often came off as a Steiner or Korngold copycat; usually rather than embracing the new as other American composers did he imitated the old world romanticism. Wuthering Heights is probably the best example of this period in his output, and even though it's good I don't rate it anywhere near his later output. I do also admittedly enjoy some of his early swashbuckling scores like The Black Swan, The Prisoner of Zenda, and The Mark of Zorro (the latter co-composed with the great Hugo Friedhofer), but there is a marked improvement over these late 30s/early 40s scores when you even compare them with post-war efforts from the latter half of the 40s. Somehow over the course of the decade he learned a lot, his sound matured into a really unique and great compositional voice, and he really became the Alfred Newman I love. My absolute favorites of his:

1. Captain from Castile -- I grew up with this very good film which is absolutely raised in excellence due to its amazing score. If I had to pick something to call Newman's magnum opus, it would be this. Epic in scope, with no less than a dozen great and distinct different themes, spanning various styles and cultures of music. Like Rozsa, he researched the hell out of authentic Spanish and Native American music before tackling this masterpiece, and it really shows in the authentic feel of many cues. I will admit I find the main love theme in this one a little syrupy for my taste, but most people adore it and there is a secondary love theme that I just find incredibly gorgeous. Add to that a heartbreaking family theme on the tragic level of Rozsa's from Ben-Hur, a stirring and original Conquest march which was so iconic that it became the USC football fight song, played by their marching band at every game, a villainous theme for the Inquisition that's pretty much Alfred Newman's Imperial March, and a kick-ass main title theme which is however virtually impossible to hum (I've tried, believe me)...and that's just scratching the surface. It also has, for my money, the single best and most breathlessly exciting action cue ever composed in the Golden Age of Hollywood: De Vargas Family Escape. And thankfully, there is an incredible deluxe release of the complete score (sans one cue, the exciting but brief Prologue that you'll just have to watch the film to hear) from Screen Archives, with an amazing liner notes booklet and the score sounding pretty amazing for 1947. This is important because I'm with you in that Newman's style is difficult to capture in modern recordings (particularly the strings)...though as a rare exception the Stromberg/Morgan recording of The Robe actually succeeds quite admirably.

2. The Robe, David and Bathsheba, and The Egyptian -- you already know about these so I'm cheating and lumping them together since they have a similar great ancient sound, very influential on some Basil Poledouris scores we both like.

3. The Counterfeit Traitor -- this one (released by Kritzerland) is just thrilling and badass -- listen to the sound clips.

4. A Man Called Peter -- This one is just lovely and really overlooked so I wanted to give you a heads up about it if you like Newman's religious (though not period) sound. The FSM does incorporate a lot of source music into the main program so I found I enjoyed it more when I edited a playlist out of the score portions, but I just adore it.

5. The President's Lady -- This one's rather overlooked and underrated but it's fantastic.

Strong honorable mentions to The Keys of the Kingdom (Screen Archives again), How Green Was My Valley (get the Kritzerland), Prince of Foxes (took a little while to grow on me but I eventually succumbed to its lovely Italianate charms), Anastasia (gorgeous main theme), A Certain Smile (LLL had this on a great sale for a while but I think it finally sold out...it's just beautiful though I wish Newman didn't have to adapt the title song not composed by him; his own love theme in the score is much better). How the West Was Won is perhaps my single favorite Alfred Newman theme.

The famous All About Eve leaves me a little cold, honestly...not that it's bad. I get tired of the main theme in Diary of Anne Frank a little bit but there's a secondary theme which appears much less frequently which is just heartstoppingly gorgeous. But honestly you pretty much can't go wrong...the earlier Newman scores I'm not as crazy about also haven't survived the years for the most part.

Yavar


This is a terrific post, and I'm grateful. It's comforting to know that someone else has trouble with some of Alfred's early out, as it can indeed sound...should I say too contemporary with that time. I don't hear the individual voice of the composer the way I do in, say, the Robe or even the Egyptian, really. But hey, Beethoven had a lot of trouble getting out from under the influence of Haydn and Mozart in his early period. Only the Eroica and opus 59 started stretching out the beat-to-death sonata form of his time, breaking some cast-in-stone harmonic rules along the way, adding a type of expressivity that had only been rarely heard before him, and...well, basically blowing everyone's mind at the time smile

Oh dear, I just went on another Beethoven rant. Sorry, I do that.

I am going to try the more recently recorded "Man of Galilee" because I want to hear Song of Bernadette, Castile, and Diary rerecorded (Castile not as much, the recording isn't all that bad I guess). I'm having trouble really connecting to the first and third scores because my copy of those recordings have major sound problems that are proving insurmountable for me (I'm that guy who, despite borderline worshipping Bernard's music, had to sell On Dangerous Ground solely because of the sound, as good a job as FSM did on that album it screams for a redo imo).

 
 Posted:   Nov 21, 2017 - 7:49 AM   
 By:   WagnerAlmighty   (Member)



So all this talk about self-plagiarization and borrowing gets kind of silly to me; most of the time the most adamantly vocal about those issues is a failed or unsuccessful composer.





You'll find that the people here who criticise these things do so from a perspective of modern temp-track boredom. Many films are tracked with temporary music scores by music editors for spotting purposes, for evaluation of a scene dramatically in terms of pacing, and even for preview screenings in front of test audiences. It became very obvious some years ago that temp-track was being retained (2001 is an extreme example) by directors, or was being used as templates for the composers who were told, 'I like this effect: stick as close as you can to that' by directors. The original thematic lifts were never credited.

Often the composers themselves were disheartened by this, but had to comply or be replaced themselves. It was passed off as 'hommage' of course, but it wasn't always so, and the contexts belied it. An ironic tragi-comic piece from Lt. Kije would suddenly (slightly disguised) turn up in a melancholic scene set in ancient Rome or something devoid of context. So how is that homage? Film music is about CONTEXT. It was music that simply fitted in terms of pace and texture. A film-music homage is not so simple as a pure classical homage. MEANING is involved.

As regards the baroque or early classical examples, it's not the same you know. When everything is new and nothing has yet been tried, it's not really plagiarism when composers use similar harmonic structure or progressions from a still limited set of templates, especially when there are as yet still unbroken RULES. Who was the first to use, say, a set of gruppetti to elaborate a tune? Did all others then plagiarise him? Are we to say that every composer who ever lived borrows from that caveman who first got two notes to follow one-another with his ram's horn? In law, plagiarism is about melody.

Those early composers didn't have the infinite luxury of today's post-modern and post-impressionistic of range of choices. They had rules that still hadn't been broken.

Plus, the reason folk here collect this sort of music is because it's good as a stand-alone experience outside the film. As Herrmann said, music of very poor quality 'can also be very effective in a film'. But for these stand-alone fans you meet here, patchwork quilts of borrowings without originality are ... well, they are what they are.

Even Herr Zimmer hates temp-track theft:


https://jonnyelwyn.co.uk/film-and-video-editing/hans-zimmer-composing-masterclass-an-editors-review/


Excellent post! But I was already with you on this point, I might just not have put it the right way.

If you want to get really technical, there hasn't been anything "new" in Pop music (for example) since probably the days of Motown, the Beatles' Revolver and Beach Boys' Pet Sounds. It's almost entirely from a playbook that has miraculously held together for over fifty years (via the paying, casual listening public). Yet we rarely hear terms like sui generis, unintentional homage, etc. when folks typically talk about it. Of course, I'm not including the fashion side of that genre of music, which obviously has a lot more to do with Pop's popularity (and when I say Pop I mean all its subgenres including Rock and Country) than the music itself.

Temp track madness is indeed a tiresome phenomenon. But it's the way things are I guess.

 
 
 Posted:   Nov 21, 2017 - 8:14 AM   
 By:   Morricone   (Member)

I have to chime in on THE HUNCHBACK OF NOTRE DAME. It was one of THE most expensive epics ever to come out of RKO and Charles Laughton's greatest performance out of many great performances he did onscreen. Because it was set in the church it was the first excursion into the religious idiom for Alfred and set the bar and tone for all such films he did after. THE SONG OF BERNADETTE, THE GREATEST STORY EVER TOLD and THE ROBE owe much to it (in fact THE ROBE's most exciting cue "The Rescue of Demetrius" is from HUNCHBACK). In addition the simple 2 note love theme he gives for the Hunchback's feelings for Esmeralda the gypsy is one of the most achingly vulnerable pieces of music ever written. The only Newman piece Bill Stromberg gave full glory to, it remains one of the earliest Newman classics and sometimes gets lost in the shuffle because it came out the same legendary year as WUTHERING HEIGHTS and GUNGA DIN (not forgetting Steiner's GONE WITH THE WIND) 1939.

 
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