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 Posted:   Nov 16, 2011 - 2:17 AM   
 By:   mortenbond   (Member)

The score for the original Pink Panther by Mancini is truly great. Such a pity the soundtrack album does not contain any of the excellent underscore. The suspense cue from the begining when Capucine (Mrs. Clouseau) is chased by the police is very good, as is the ski chase music based on the catchy "I had better be tonight". The albums has some good rerecordings, but I so wish someone could release the complete score.

And I would say the same for "A shot in the Dark". The two scores are my holy grails.

Is there any reason why no label has released them yet? Who has the rights and which label has the contacts?

Inspector Clouseau: "There is more here, than meets the ear!"

 
 
 Posted:   Nov 16, 2011 - 2:47 AM   
 By:   Bob DiMucci   (Member)

Is there any reason why no label has released them yet? Who has the rights and which label has the contacts?


This question has been addressed many times. In short, there are two issues.

1. The availability of the original score tracks. “The Pink Panther” and “A Shot In the Dark” were originally released by United Artists. Those films are currently controlled by M-G-M, but the UA archives are rather spotty as to whether score elements have survived the years, particularly those from the 1950s and 1960s. Nevertheless, fresh discoveries are always being made, and in recent years we’ve seen many UA scores surface that have been thought lost.

2. Henry Mancini’s contract with RCA records and RCA's contracts with the studios. For most of the 1960’s Mancini was under exclusive contract with RCA records. That’s why all of Mancini’s scores that were released during that time appeared on RCA, even while most of the studios he worked for had their own record labels. Apparently, the contracts between RCA and the studios gave RCA the rights to issue any and all soundtracks for the films involved, in some cases in perpetuity. This seems to have been the price the studios had to pay to get Mancini’s services, and apparently it’s a contractual right that RCA (now Sony) wants big bucks to give up, so much so, that not a single score that appeared on a Mancini album from the 1960s has ever had its original tracks released.

 
 
 Posted:   Nov 16, 2011 - 3:23 AM   
 By:   mortenbond   (Member)

Thanks Bob, that was very enlightening, but also a bit of a let down.

If the tapes are lost nothing can be done. But who knows? Well, only the ones who actually tried to search for them. Has anyone made an attempt?

If it`s Sony being difficult things could be done. Speaking as a lawyer I know these things can be overcome. There would only be something to gain for Sony to allow a complete Panther album. They would not have to give up any rights, just licence them to any label wishing to release it.

Let`s hope there is a pink passion somewhere at Kritzerland, Lalaland or any land for that matter.

 
 
 Posted:   Nov 16, 2011 - 4:00 AM   
 By:   Bob DiMucci   (Member)

If it`s Sony being difficult things could be done. Speaking as a lawyer I know these things can be overcome. There would only be something to gain for Sony to allow a complete Panther album. They would not have to give up any rights, just licence them to any label wishing to release it.


For whatever reason, RCA has been somewhat stingy in releasing its own catalog of soundtracks and even slower to allow others to do so. In the U.S., RCA has issued the Elvis Presley song-tracks and some of its more popular Henry Mancini LPs, and allowed RCA Spain to issue the rest of the Mancinis, in addition to other soundtracks. As noted, many of the RCA LP licenses were "in perpetuity." That makes it difficult for anyone other than RCA to issue the albums without some real heavy-duty negotiations and probably some large payments as well--perhaps so large that any releases would be unprofitable for the speciality labels. Even so, of the more than 50 remaining RCA soundtrack LPs that RCA hasn't issued, a few have snuck through. Intrada issued "In Harm's Way" in mid-2009. And Disques CinéMusique managed to release Georges Auric's "Bonjour, Tristesse" in early 2010.

 
 
 Posted:   Nov 16, 2011 - 4:09 AM   
 By:   fleming   (Member)

The score for the original Pink Panther by Mancini is truly great. Such a pity the soundtrack album does not contain any of the excellent underscore. The suspense cue from the begining when Capucine (Mrs. Clouseau) is chased by the police is very good, as is the ski chase music based on the catchy "I had better be tonight". The albums has some good rerecordings, but I so wish someone could release the complete score.

And I would say the same for "A shot in the Dark". The two scores are my holy grails.

Is there any reason why no label has released them yet? Who has the rights and which label has the contacts?

Inspector Clouseau: "There is more here, than meets the ear!"


I second the motion and would also add "Charade", "Experiment in Terror" and "Hatari" to the list.

 
 
 Posted:   Nov 16, 2011 - 4:29 AM   
 By:   mortenbond   (Member)

For whatever reason, RCA has been somewhat stingy in releasing its own catalog of soundtracks and even slower to allow others to do so. In the U.S., RCA has issued the Elvis Presley song-tracks and some of its more popular Henry Mancini LPs, and allowed RCA Spain to issue the rest of the Mancinis, in addition to other soundtracks. As noted, many of the RCA LP licenses were "in perpetuity." That makes it difficult for anyone other than RCA to issue the albums without some real heavy-duty negotiations and probably some large payments as well--perhaps so large that any releases would be unprofitable for the speciality labels. Even so, of the more than 50 remaining RCA soundtrack LPs that RCA hasn't issued, a few have snuck through. Intrada issued "In Harm's Way" in mid-2009. And Disques CinéMusique managed to release Georges Auric's "Bonjour, Tristesse" in early 2010.

Do we know if RCA has the rights for just the re-recorded LPs, or do they own the rights for the original scores as well. MGM might retain the rights for the original scores. Then someone with contacts at MGM could do a release. Just a thought.

And if RCA have the rights for the original scores, then RCA Spain could do it, perhaps with Quartet. I see no reason why RCA would ask for loads own money for the licence if the music is right there on the shelf, and they have no ambition to exploit the rights themselves. Should be a win-win for them. I hope someone out there is reading this an perhaps make an attempt. It could be a big release, and a bit more mainstream than most score releases. Hope springs eternal.

 
 
 Posted:   Nov 16, 2011 - 4:30 AM   
 By:   mortenbond   (Member)

For whatever reason, RCA has been somewhat stingy in releasing its own catalog of soundtracks and even slower to allow others to do so. In the U.S., RCA has issued the Elvis Presley song-tracks and some of its more popular Henry Mancini LPs, and allowed RCA Spain to issue the rest of the Mancinis, in addition to other soundtracks. As noted, many of the RCA LP licenses were "in perpetuity." That makes it difficult for anyone other than RCA to issue the albums without some real heavy-duty negotiations and probably some large payments as well--perhaps so large that any releases would be unprofitable for the speciality labels. Even so, of the more than 50 remaining RCA soundtrack LPs that RCA hasn't issued, a few have snuck through. Intrada issued "In Harm's Way" in mid-2009. And Disques CinéMusique managed to release Georges Auric's "Bonjour, Tristesse" in early 2010.

Do we know if RCA has the rights for just the re-recorded LPs, or do they own the rights for the original scores as well. MGM might retain the rights for the original scores. Then someone with contacts at MGM could do a release. Just a thought.

And if RCA have the rights for the original scores, then RCA Spain could do it, perhaps with Quartet. I see no reason why RCA would ask for loads own money for the licence if the music is right there on the shelf, and they have no ambition to exploit the rights themselves. Should be a win-win for them. I hope someone out there is reading this an perhaps make an attempt. It could be a big release, and a bit more mainstream than most score releases. Hope springs eternal.

 
 
 Posted:   Nov 16, 2011 - 5:15 AM   
 By:   OnyaBirri   (Member)

Two questions that have not been addressed (to my knowledge).

Assuming the tracks exist, couldn't we get a compilation of the underscore (non LP tracks) from various films? That would be a way around releasing another album called, say "The Pink Panther" or "Charade."

"Wait Until Dark" dates from the period when Mancini was under contract to RCA. Apparently, it was OK to release this, as there was no "competing" RCA album with that title.

So, couldn't someone do, say, a "Mancini Rarities" box set with all the underscore tracks that did not make it to the LPs? We could then sequence our own albums.

 
 
 Posted:   Nov 16, 2011 - 12:06 PM   
 By:   Bob DiMucci   (Member)


"Wait Until Dark" dates from the period when Mancini was under contract to RCA. Apparently, it was OK to release this, as there was no "competing" RCA album with that title.


Exactly. This is also why FSM was able to release "Bachelor In Paradise" and Intrada could release "Mr. Hobbs Takes a Vacation."

In these cases, because the studios chose not to put out an album at the time of the films' release, there apparently was no contractual clause that gave RCA any rights in the future to put out such an album. It's likely that no one at RCA thought that there would be a market for such albums years or decades after the films were released (and there barely is smile). This is also likely why the studios were willing to give up their rights to RCA "in perpetuity" in many cases. Who cares if RCA has the rights to issue something that probably would have no commercial value in the future anyway.

 
 
 Posted:   Nov 16, 2011 - 12:14 PM   
 By:   Bob DiMucci   (Member)

Do we know if RCA has the rights for just the re-recorded LPs, or do they own the rights for the original scores as well. MGM might retain the rights for the original scores. Then someone with contacts at MGM could do a release. Just a thought.


Well, RCA does not own the actual original score tracks. Those are owned by the studios that released the films. What RCA may have, in perpetuity, is a contractual right to issue any and all soundtrack albums that are derived from those score elements (be they the original tracks or, as was the case for most of the Mancini/RCA albums, re-recordings). Hence the need, at a minimum, to get RCA/Sony's permission to release those scores and perhaps also to make a hefty cash payment to RCA/Sony to get that permission.

 
 
 Posted:   Nov 16, 2011 - 12:31 PM   
 By:   Bob DiMucci   (Member)

Assuming the tracks exist, couldn't we get a compilation of the underscore (non LP tracks) from various films? That would be a way around releasing another album called, say "The Pink Panther" or "Charade."

So, couldn't someone do, say, a "Mancini Rarities" box set with all the underscore tracks that did not make it to the LPs? We could then sequence our own albums.



I'm guessing that RCA's contractual rights are not limited to the score cues that they actually included on their LPs, but extend to all of the cues for the pictures for which albums were released (and from which they could have chosen in making up their LPs). Their contracts were for the film and score as a whole, not for specific cues.

 
 
 Posted:   Nov 16, 2011 - 1:29 PM   
 By:   OnyaBirri   (Member)



I'm guessing that RCA's contractual rights are not limited to the score cues that they actually included on their LPs, but extend to all of the cues for the pictures for which albums were released (and from which they could have chosen in making up their LPs). Their contracts were for the film and score as a whole, not for specific cues.


But the LPs were re-recordings. It's hard to imagine that RCA would have a say in the film tracks, as long as they weren't being presented as soundtrack albums parallel to RCA's releases.

 
 
 Posted:   Nov 16, 2011 - 3:25 PM   
 By:   Bob DiMucci   (Member)

But the LPs were re-recordings. It's hard to imagine that RCA would have a say in the film tracks, as long as they weren't being presented as soundtrack albums parallel to RCA's releases.

Well, imagine a contract clause between RCA and a studio that reads as follows:

"Paramount Pictures hereby gives RCA the exclusive right, in perpetuity, to issue or license the issuance of commercial recordings of the music score from this film, either in the form of the original recorded soundtrack or through re-recordings of the musical cues provided by the composer. Use of any original soundtrack materials, now or in the future, is subject to the agreement of Paramount Pictures. In exchange for these recording and publishing rights, RCA herein agrees to finance, produce, and distribute an album of music from the film's musical score, of at least 25 minutes in length, comprised of either original score tracks or re-recorded musical cues. This album will be released no sooner than 6 weeks prior to the film's scheduled opening and no later than 2 weeks prior to such opening. RCA agrees to keep the album in print for a minimum of 1 year after the film's opening."

Under this clause, how does Paramount provide the original score tracks of "Breakfast at Tiffany's" to FSM for release on CD?

 
 
 Posted:   Nov 16, 2011 - 3:43 PM   
 By:   OnyaBirri   (Member)

Well, you can put anything in a contract, and then either sign it or not. But how typical would that have been? Granted, Mancini was an unusual case, because he'd been under contract to RCA as a recording artist prior to his releasing film scores on that label.

I can see them saying no to another label's Pink Panther album, but it's hard for me to imagine they would have a say in the use of actual film tracks they don't own, assuming they were presented differently. But, yeah, I've never read the contract so I can't say for sure.

Still, I wonder how they would react to a compilation of underscore cues that weren't on the albums.

 
 
 Posted:   Nov 16, 2011 - 4:09 PM   
 By:   Bob DiMucci   (Member)

Well, you can put anything in a contract, and then either sign it or not. But how typical would that have been? Granted, Mancini was an unusual case, because he'd been under contract to RCA as a recording artist prior to his releasing film scores on that label.

I can see them saying no to another label's Pink Panther album, but it's hard for me to imagine they would have a say in the use of actual film tracks they don't own, assuming they were presented differently. But, yeah, I've never read the contract so I can't say for sure.


Well, that's my theory as to why we haven't seen the release of ANY of Mancini's actual 1960s soundtracks for which RCA albums exist. I haven't heard any better theory. The contractual theory is easier for me to buy than any explanation that suggests that all of the specialty labels are unaware of these scores; that the labels have no regard for Mancini as a composer; that the labels believe that the releases would be terrible sellers; that the labels just haven't gotten around to contacting Paramount, Universal, Columbia, Fox, or M-G-M on these; that the original soundtracks for all of the scores at all of the studios that had RCA LPs have been lost (while those for all of Mancini's 1960's scores without RCA LPs have survived); or anything else that you can posit.

 
 Posted:   Nov 16, 2011 - 5:27 PM   
 By:   Doctor Shatterhand   (Member)

I only have this song with the vocals but it is nice to hear it without them.

 
 Posted:   Nov 16, 2011 - 6:05 PM   
 By:   DavidinBerkeley   (Member)


I can see them saying no to another label's Pink Panther album, but it's hard for me to imagine they would have a say in the use of actual film tracks they don't own, assuming they were presented differently. But, yeah, I've never read the contract so I can't say for sure.

Still, I wonder how they would react to a compilation of underscore cues that weren't on the albums.


I'm finding it easy to imagine a record company (RCA, in this case) asking for or being given some sort of contractual exclusivity to having a recording on the market of music from a film (to avoid competition?).

 
 
 Posted:   Nov 16, 2011 - 7:42 PM   
 By:   Yen Fai   (Member)

Bob DiMucci wrote:
Exactly. This is also why FSM was able to release "Bachelor In Paradise" and Intrada could release "Mr. Hobbs Takes a Vacation."

In these cases, because the studios chose not to put out an album at the time of the films' release, there apparently was no contractual clause that gave RCA any rights in the future to put out such an album. It's likely that no one at RCA thought that there would be a market for such albums years or decades after the films were released (and there barely is smile). This is also likely why the studios were willing to give up their rights to RCA "in perpetuity" in many cases. Who cares if RCA has the rights to issue something that probably would have no commercial value in the future anyway.

Thank goodness, then there's still a chance of Disney's Condorman seeing the light of day! (Although he may not have been contracted to any label at that point, and I can't see Disney agreeing to anything that would deny them total rights.)

 
 
 Posted:   Nov 16, 2011 - 10:00 PM   
 By:   OnyaBirri   (Member)



Well, that's my theory as to why we haven't seen the release of ANY of Mancini's actual 1960s soundtracks for which RCA albums exist. I haven't heard any better theory. The contractual theory is easier for me to buy than any explanation that suggests that all of the specialty labels are unaware of these scores...


I get what you're saying. But no one has yet addressed my idea of a compilation of non-LP cues. This would serve as a complement to the RCA albums and would not "compete" against them. As though anyone is buying 50-year-old soundtracks.

If someone has had this idea, I'd like to hear about what happened. Considering the fetish of complete soundtrack releases around these parts, it may not have even occurred to anyone.

So, I will still suggest this as a possibility until someone can tell me that my idea has been suggested and nixed.

 
 Posted:   Nov 16, 2011 - 10:42 PM   
 By:   Steve Johnson   (Member)

I'd love to see any or all of this material released- he was brilliant. I think eventually it will be.

 
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