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 Posted:   Jan 5, 2011 - 2:03 PM   
 By:   filmusicnow   (Member)

I always heard that Jerry Goldsmith's score for "Planet Of The Apes" used "no electronic instruments", but didn't I hear an electric guitar with a wah wah pedal in the opening of the main title?

 
 Posted:   Jan 5, 2011 - 2:26 PM   
 By:   mark ford   (Member)

"Not an electric guitar, but an incredible simulation!!!" wink

The part I think you might be talking about, a loud fanfare-ish 2 note perfect 5th that slowly echoes away, sounds like it's played by one of the ethnic rams horns used in the score that is echoplexed giving it an electronic sound of sorts.

Or if you're talking about the downward glissing sound before that, almost at the very beginning, I believe that's a wooden bass slide whistle.

 
 
 Posted:   Jan 5, 2011 - 5:50 PM   
 By:   zooba   (Member)

Carol Kaye of The Wrecking Crew played electric guitar on

Jerry's ESCAPE FROM THE PLANET OF THE APES

and what seems a million more TV productions and Movies:

http://www.carolkaye.com/www/library/tvandfilms.htm

 
 Posted:   Jan 5, 2011 - 6:22 PM   
 By:   Loren   (Member)

Carol Kaye of The Wrecking Crew played electric guitar on

Jerry's ESCAPE FROM THE PLANET OF THE APES

and what seems a million more TV productions and Movies:

http://www.carolkaye.com/www/library/tvandfilms.htm


I had never known that.
You never stop learning something on this board !

 
 Posted:   Jan 5, 2011 - 6:52 PM   
 By:   Mr. Marshall   (Member)

I always heard that Jerry Goldsmith's score for "Planet Of The Apes" used "no electronic instruments.....

right, and the knife never touched Janetl Leigh's body in PSYCHO....
folks, he used an echoplex, i.e a tape machine to process the music. that's called using an electronic instrument.
bruce marshall

 
 Posted:   Jan 5, 2011 - 7:28 PM   
 By:   Heath   (Member)

Echoplex... echoplex... echoplex... echoplex...

Remember folks that an Echoplex is a simple tape delay machine which, when a sound is fed into it, creates, yup, an echo! The word Echoplex is just a brand name like Hoover. It's no more a musical instrument than a mixing desk is.

For POTA's main title, Goldsmith used the bass notes of a prepared piano (that's a piano with bits and pieces shoved between the strings to alter or dampen the sound producing that distinctive, richly harmonic bass heartbeat that opens the title), a bass slide whistle, some amplified sand slooshed around to created the wooshing sound you hear, a rams horn, steel mixing bowls, pizzicato strings, woodwinds, unison french horns, and various exotic percussion. The echoplex delay was added to certain sections of that instrumental group.

Just brilliant.

That man had a hell of a musical imagination... to conjure that out of nothing. Just brilliant.

 
 Posted:   Jan 5, 2011 - 7:37 PM   
 By:   Mr. Marshall   (Member)

a tape machine is an electronic instrument
there are concert works entitled "for orchestra--and tape" - think Edgar Varese
c
but the relevant question is is,c why Goldsmith fans tout this classic score specifically because it didn't use electronics.
Goldsmith was a progresssive composer who used eletronic instruments many times before POTA and after.

its all rather silly, i must say smile

 
 Posted:   Jan 5, 2011 - 7:58 PM   
 By:   Heath   (Member)

a tape machine is an electronic instrument
there are concert works entitled "for orchestra--and tape" - think Edgar Varese
c
but the relevant question is is,c why Goldsmith fans tout this classic score specifically because it didn't use electronics.
Goldsmith was a progresssive composer who used eletronic instruments many times before POTA and after.

its all rather silly, i must say smile


A tape machine is a sound processing and replay device. Quite a few other composers have concert pieces calling for one - Steve Reich, Geoffrey Burgon etc. But calling it an instrument is pretty discretionary and relies as much on the philosophical drive of the composer's intention as much as the technical requirements of the piece. Strictly speaking however, it's just a hunk of gear. This applies even more to a tape delay machine whether it's an Echoplex or whatever other brand you want to use.

I think fans tout the score because its tonal imagination is so fresh and unusual that it's hard to believe it was accomplished just by using conventional instruments and a few pots and pans.

I would say that it IS an electronic score in so much that it was designed with electronic generation and processing in mind. Because of the way the sounds are mixed and amplified, the score could not have been achieved with conventional orchestral recording techniques.

Hey... it's Goldsmith's Sgt. Pepper!!!

 
 Posted:   Jan 5, 2011 - 8:37 PM   
 By:   Jeff Bond   (Member)

Electronic "generation" to me means the sound would be originated by the electronic device--and I am speaking as a complete know-nothing here, but this just seems like a logical way to discuss this. The echoplex just repeats and manipulates (in a very simple fashion) a sound that was originally generated by another instrument. I would think that electronic music would be music that is generated by a synthesizer or any machine that creates and generates a sound purely electronically. So if you're adding reverb or doing whatever else you're doing with a mixing board or repeating a tone generated by an acoustic instrument, that doesn't seem to fit the definition of "electronic music" to me. Just sayin'.

 
 Posted:   Jan 6, 2011 - 7:15 AM   
 By:   WILLIAMDMCCRUM   (Member)

.... but the relevant question is is why Goldsmith fans tout this classic score specifically because it didn't use electronics.
Goldsmith was a progresssive composer who used eletronic instruments many times before POTA and after.




The bottom line is the effect the composer wants to create in the listener, and how it fits the visuals. With Goldsmith, his TV years gave him a great facility with instant orchestration: he knew just how EVERYTHING would sound, and what unconventional mixtures would produce. He always attributed that to his experience gained in the TV studio quick scores.

He was highly intuitive in his approach, but he thought stuff out too. In the case of PoTAs, what did he want, and how did he achieve it? He wasn't concerned with the usual techno-electronic sci-fi cliche, he seems to have wanted an organic 'animal' sound, and that's what you get: jungle noises, bodily function/animal call music. That's the whole thrust of the film's feel .... adult monkey music, the hunt, and stone-age architecture.

Some people above seem to think he shouldn't have imposed that limitation on the score. But what he DID was remarkable, and the more so since he knew the variety of conventional instruments.

Nowadays, there's so MUCH electronic music everywhere that this generation sees it as a universal 'norm' medium. If older fans say they dislike that, then they get written off as Luddites or reactionary grumps. But it COULD be argued that today people are less and less connected to 'nature'. There's a reason why woodwinds are good for pastorale music. They are and sound ORGANIC, like birdsong etc.. They have subliminal harmonics etc.. In the old days, a composer would only use electronic music for sci-fi or highly 'technological' modern dramatic settings. Even an old fashioned factory or production plant setting doesn't really need electronics, it's a 'space' or computer thing. But it has become so ubiquitous nowadays that it's used for EVERYTHING. I think that's a bad, limiting thing, because I think it alters our perceptions. I'd stick my neck out and say that people brought up in urban environments (or very treeless bleak landscapes) don't notice the 'artificiality' and coldness of techno, they think it's the natural, what they're used to.

But it isn't. When you hear PotAs, think nature, jungle, adrenalin, animals, chase. That doesn't need electro, it's not the Daleks, and Goldsmith knew that. Try to listen to what a composer INTENDS. Watch your cat or dog for a while to get this score, don't stare at your fridge.

 
 
 Posted:   Jan 6, 2011 - 9:24 AM   
 By:   Jon Lewis   (Member)

I've never considered electric guitar to be an electronic instrument. It's an amplified instrument. Like Jeff, I consider an electronic instrument to be one whose original signal is not generated acoustically. So electric guitar, Fender Rhodes, not electronic.

Although it's tempting to agree with the proposition so that we can talk about the scandal of Dylan "going electronic" at the Newport Folk Festival in 1966... smile

 
 Posted:   Jan 6, 2011 - 10:46 AM   
 By:   RoryR   (Member)

I am speaking as a complete know-nothing here

Oh, well I guess that explains your writings in the booklet for the 1997 Varese Sarabande CD release of Goldsmith's PLANET OF THE APES!

I don't mean to insult, but that booklet left a lot to de desired, namely a more detailed and scholarly dissertation on what is one of the greatest film scores ever -- and that's not an exaggeration.

Now here we are thirteen years later, there's no movement from Varese to update this release, no Nick Redman score commentary on the Blu-ray, and too many people here don't understand the Echoplex.

Life on the Planet of the Humans can sure be frustrating for a Goldsmith fan.


 
 
 Posted:   Jan 6, 2011 - 11:28 AM   
 By:   Jon Lewis   (Member)

I very much doubt that the length of the booklet essay was Jeff's decision to make...

 
 Posted:   Jan 6, 2011 - 12:16 PM   
 By:   Grecchus   (Member)

I saw The Clothes Snatchers performed by the LSO under Jerry's baton at one of the Barbican concerts that have been threaded recently. It was done in the main using conventional orchestrations. Though, if memory serves he did point out that some unconventional objects were used in the production of the score and a few pots and pans may have been overtly left on display, if not used by various members of the orchestra. It's just so damned annoying not being able to remember precisely what went into the performance. All I remember for sure is that it was the Clothes Snatchers and might have been part of a suite. Anyway, its only important in the sense that when I heard it I was able to compare it with the soundtrack and yes it was close, maybe a bit slower than the recorded version. Does anyone out there remember this at all?

I'm interested in how Heath has information on what went into that main title. One of Jerry's great abilities was to introduce tempos and eddies in segments of his music that required skilled musicians to pick up on and exploit. That main title is a very good example of this. Every pause has a function, too. Another very good example of this use of timing can be found in Illustrated Man and Tora. Indeed, much of the raw emotiveness in his music comes from unleashing the power in the sounds at precisely the right moment. That's part of what I love so much about his music.

 
 Posted:   Jan 6, 2011 - 12:41 PM   
 By:   Mark R. Y.   (Member)

Although it's tempting to agree with the proposition so that we can talk about the scandal of Dylan "going electronic" at the Newport Folk Festival in 1966... smile

'65 actually. big grin

I first saw POTA on television when I was 9 years old. This was a few years before I knew Jerry Goldsmith's name and, for that matter, before I even realized one could collect film music on albums. But Goldsmith's score for "Apes" really stood out for me. I remember trying to recreate the chase scene music (leading up to the famous "damn dirty apes" line) on the piano, and generally being dazzled by the whole approach that Goldsmith undertook.

 
 Posted:   Jan 6, 2011 - 1:50 PM   
 By:   Mr. Marshall   (Member)

I am speaking as a complete know-nothing here

..... that booklet left a lot to de desired, namely a more detailed and scholarly dissertation....

.


Scholarly?!
Have you seen Jeff's avatar photo?!
LOL!
bruce

ps was this posted by Thor's evil twin brother?

 
 Posted:   Jan 6, 2011 - 1:51 PM   
 By:   Mr. Marshall   (Member)



Oh, well I guess that explains your writings in the booklet for the 1997 Varese Sarabande CD release of Goldsmith's PLANET OF THE APES!

I don't mean to insult.....


gee, i would hate to see your compliments!
bruce

 
 Posted:   Jan 6, 2011 - 1:56 PM   
 By:   SheriffJoe   (Member)

I am a HUGE Goldmsith fan and I agree with Jeff Bond's description of what electronic music is and isn't.

Now, having said that, the question posed by the OP has been answered. So, why are people bickering and (person) insulting others just to create drama? Is that really necessary?

Joe

 
 
 Posted:   Jan 6, 2011 - 4:12 PM   
 By:   Octoberman   (Member)

Hmmm. I suppose a tape machine could be considered an instrument in it's own right. But there has to be a recording ON the tape and the only example that comes to mind is the Mellotron.

But apart from that, it's only a device that stores music that was already played.

Additionally, I think that to say that any instrument which requires external amplification is an electronic instrument is too broad a generalization.

 
 
 Posted:   Jan 6, 2011 - 8:54 PM   
 By:   filmusicnow   (Member)

Hmmm. I suppose a tape machine could be considered an instrument in it's own right. But there has to be a recording ON the tape and the only example that comes to mind is the Mellotron.

But apart from that, it's only a device that stores music that was already played.

Additionally, I think that to say that any instrument which requires external amplification is an electronic instrument is too broad a generalization.


If it was a Mellotron, it would be the only time Goldsmith ever used it in one of his film scores (considering he went through every electronic keyboard imaginable from almost every manufacturer [including Yamaha, for which he did a photo ad that was seen only in the U.K.]).

 
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