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Posted: |
Mar 24, 2023 - 12:37 PM
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By: |
.
(Member)
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It means nothing, how many CDs from a handful of pint-sized labels that Tiomkin scores sell today compared to Goldsmith or any other composer. Telling us that Tadlow's "The Alamo" didn't sell well is like telling us a particular new video of Muhammad Ali has sold badly and from that we should deduce that Ali is no longer a popular figure.
At the height of his powers, Tiomkin was a household name. A showman, like Cecil B. DeMille. Everyone knew who he was. It would be virtually impossible to find anyone who did not know his name and what he did. Ask 100 random people in the street who Dimitri Tiomkin was, and they would all know, just as they'd know who Clark Gable was, or Jane Russell, or Edward G. Robinson. Tiomkin was a star of Hollywood.
In contrast, at any time in Goldsmith's career, at whatever point you place his heyday, if 100 random people were approached on the street, maybe two could tell you who he was. Or probably less. Today, if I went outside and showed his photo to 100 people, or played them the music of Star Trek, they wouldn't know him. Not one would say Jerry Goldsmith. I'm absolutely sure of it. They'd immediately recognize Star Trek but if any could name any film music composer, they would say John Williams.
When we listen to Tiomkin scores, we're hearing music that reflects cinema and tastes and methods of the times. Because we like those times. We like "old" Hollywood" and the glitz and sparkle attached to the films and the music associated with them.
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Posted: |
Mar 24, 2023 - 12:53 PM
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By: |
eriknelson
(Member)
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At the height of his powers, Tiomkin was a household name. A showman, like Cecil B. DeMille. Everyone knew who he was. It would be virtually impossible to find anyone who did not know his name and what he did. Ask 100 random people in the street who Dimitri Tiomkin was, and they would all know, just as they'd know who Clark Gable was, or Jane Russell, or Edward G. Robinson. Tiomkin was a star of Hollywood.
Yup. He was even a mystery guest on What's My Line. Only the most famous of the famous could appear on that show.
True, and he also guest starred in an episode of the Jack Benny show. It's been years but, if I remember correctly, there was a gag during which Benny tried to play his violin with Tiomkin at the piano.
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I've been an advocate for Tiomkin's ANGEL FACE for years. I think it is unique in his oeuvre—Tiomkin for people who don't like Tiomkin perhaps. It is a piano and orchestra score very much in the style of Rachmaninov, Glazunov or Rubinstein, and the orchestration is very spare by Tiomkin standards. The principal theme is haunting. The score is brief—around 20 min or so—and fits this film noir like a glove.
ANGEL FACE runs on TCM fairly often. Check it out if you get a chance.
I will! Thanks for the recommendation. I think spare orchestration + solo piano has a better chance of winning me over than a lot of Tiomkin, as 36 Hours is one of my favorites. I imagine if the score is concertante-like, Tiomkin may have been more restrained in his orchestrations to make room for the solo instrument, and that alone might solve a lot of my issues with his writing. I also love haunting themes.
Hmm, I don't know. I can quickly name three more tunes that people would recognize: "Thee I Love," "Wild is the Wind" and "Town Without Pity." They may not be able to name the films associated with these songs, but the melodies are famous.
*If* you manage to find people "on the street" who recognize those, I don't think most of them would have a clue they even ever *came* from a film, much less be able to name Tiomkin as the composer. Most people who even know "Wild Is the Wind" today no doubt think it's a Nina Simone (or even David Bowie) original. It would be like "Unchained Melody" -- *nobody* in the general public has a clue that melody originated in a film score by Alex North. They'll absolutely recognize it (moreso than your three Tiomkin examples, I'd wager) but if they could tell you anyone who wrote it at most they'd name The Righteous Brothers.
Contrast that with Henry Mancini or John Williams or Bernard Herrmann or even John Barry. They are remembered as composers by the general public for their compositions, in a way that neither Jerry Goldsmith nor Dimitri Tiomkin are at this point. (But at least among the community of people who buys film music on album, it's pretty indisputable that he's more popular than Tiomkin today. Even though he was more prolific, his sales have been such that literally every single feature film score of his has been released now!)
“Rawhide” too is still widely recognized and referenced in popular culture.
I know, Robert. It's literally the first example of two I brought up. But come to think of it while average folks would recognize the tune, I doubt they'd even know it was by Tiomkin. I think fewer people would recognize "Do Not Forsake Me" these days, but of those that did recognize it I'd bet more of them could name Tiomkin as the composer. Of course I have nothing to actually back this up, but why not run the experiment yourself and go hum them for some random people who aren't film music fans.
It means nothing, how many CDs from a handful of pint-sized labels that Tiomkin scores sell today compared to Goldsmith or any other composer. Telling us that Tadlow's "The Alamo" didn't sell well is like telling us a particular new video of Muhammad Ali has sold badly and from that we should deduce that Ali is no longer a popular figure.
Except that The Alamo is not some isolated incident of poor Tiomkin sales; he was a prolific composer and if he sold better in general, the labels would be releasing more of his stuff. Simple as that. We know that the La-La Land guys are big Tiomkin fans and they championed him with many releases over the years (because up to a point, they continued to sell well). Those don't seem to be continuing now, and I think they know their business and what's likely to sell at this point.
Also, The Alamo is one of Tiomkin's best scores for one of his most well known films... so I really don't understand your analogy, Basil. I agree with you that in Tiomkin's heyday he was far more widely known than Jerry Goldsmith in his heydey. In fact I'd go so far as to call Tiomkin the Hans Zimmer of his day; he was *fantastic* at self-promotion and he made appearances on many TV shows and such, which helped. But we are talking about the here and now, and I guarantee if you approach a random person on the street and hum them the theme from Star Trek: The Motion Picture/The Next Generation, more of them will recognize it *and* be able to tell you the composer, than would be able to both recognize and name the composer for anything of Tiomkin's. Feel free to put it to the test!
When we listen to Tiomkin scores, we're hearing music that reflects cinema and tastes and methods of the times. Because we like those times. We like "old" Hollywood" and the glitz and sparkle attached to the films and the music associated with them.
*I* like those times! I grew up with old Hollywood movies recorded off TV. I like old Hollywood glitz and sparkle. I just don't (often) like Tiomkin, and I never have even though I have that nostalgia factor. And going back to "those times", I guarantee you there were people like me then as well -- like Liliane Covington, the musician whose interview I quoted above. Just because someone likes the Golden Age of Hollywood doesn't mean they necessarily like every single composer who worked during it.
Just like film music fans today might like the era we're in, but don't like every film music composer working today.
I'm certainly aware of how popular Tiomkin was in his day... in fact I'm a big Jack Benny fan and enjoyed him appearing on that show. But the relevant matter NOW is whether Tiomkin is still well known by the general public, like say Mancini still is. And I will contend confidently that he is not.
Jeez... I really DID NOT mean for this thread to turn into another debate about Tiomkin. I really was happy to just make those two positive posts and be done.
Yavar
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Sales figures from the 1960s don’t really have much bearing on sales prospects now.
Yavar
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I would buy a new recording of Lost Horizon. I like the BYU release of the original film tracks, but they don’t sound nearly as good as the 30s scores by Franz Waxman that Intrada put out a few years ago. It’s one of those 30s scores that could really shine in modern sound, I think. (Not that there’s any shortage of those, of course.)
Yavar
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