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Posted: |
Mar 18, 2023 - 9:32 PM
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By: |
DavidCorkum
(Member)
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I absolutely LOVE what George Lucas did with the Star Wars Special Editions... He made them 10 times better with his changes, and I actually PREFER the new versions to the originals...
I think my objections have more to do with the unavailability of the originals, than with the existence of the altered versions. The originals were important benchmarks in the development of motion pictures, and the new versions omit some of the work, specifically a chunk of the special effects, that made them historically important. The revised versions may make them more consistent visually with the newer films, but the groundbreaking efforts of those that produced the originals shouldn't be buried from history. IMHO.
My having a more relaxed attitude about Star Trek TMP may stem from my view that the movie wasn't as groundbreaking, largely due to a badly disorganized post production, as detailed on the podcast. It still ended up being the most spectacular looking of the first run of Star Trek features. I would object if the theatrical version was being discarded.
TMP, by the way, was the only film produced by the feature division of Paramount. I believe the rest were produced by the television arm to save costs. Did the podcast mention that?
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Looking forward to listening to this!
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Posted: |
Mar 19, 2023 - 6:07 AM
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By: |
Ado
(Member)
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The usual old myths, the TMP release in 79 was "botched so badly", well no, it was a completed film, edited and scored and done. There was not the audience screening that Wise wanted, but the film was completed. Also, the post production was not disorganized, actually the Abel work was disorganized, and it was DURING production. The work by Trumbull and Dykstra was groundbreaking, if anything more advanced and ambitious than Star Wars, and the turned out some 40% of the film in post production.
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Posted: |
Mar 19, 2023 - 10:00 AM
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By: |
Ado
(Member)
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Also, the post production was not disorganized, actually the Abel work was disorganized, and it was DURING production.
How about saying that the post production was severely rushed? Which hurt the editing badly, but makes the visual effects all that more impressive considering the time frame. The sound effects were compromised, they were created but there wasn't time to add them all. The music certainly wasn't hurt, but the final recordings were a mere week before the film opened. The cloud/Vger flyover music was structured as to allow some ease in editing, which Goldsmith assumed would happen. Which has happened now, the new cut has shortened those sequences.
They certainly could have used more time in post production, but, if you read Preston Jones book you get the insight that indeed an enormous number of hours, and a huge number of staff worked in post production, and for a long time groups of staff worked around the clock, or went next door to the hotel for sleep for a few hours and then work another 16-18 hours a day. If you could log it out I think the number of labor hours on TMP in visual effects probably surpasses almost any visual effects film made to this day. As far as the cut, I prefer the longer pass around the Enterprise and I prefer the longer cut of the flight through the clouds. I know that they were intended to cut later, but Trumbull had that idea of first person immersive cinema, which is enhanced with the longer edit.
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Posted: |
Mar 19, 2023 - 6:06 PM
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By: |
Solium
(Member)
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The usual old myths, the TMP release in 79 was "botched so badly", well no, it was a completed film, edited and scored and done. There was not the audience screening that Wise wanted, but the film was completed. Also, the post production was not disorganized, actually the Abel work was disorganized, and it was DURING production. The work by Trumbull and Dykstra was groundbreaking, if anything more advanced and ambitious than Star Wars, and the turned out some 40% of the film in post production.
Totally agree Ado. The revisionism is infuriating. And to think 44 years later think they could "finish" the film. What do I want more of, Trumbull's and Dykstra's masterful work or the new officers lounge scene?
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Posted: |
Mar 19, 2023 - 10:11 PM
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By: |
Tom Servo
(Member)
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The usual old myths, the TMP release in 79 was "botched so badly", well no, it was a completed film, edited and scored and done. There was not the audience screening that Wise wanted, but the film was completed. Also, the post production was not disorganized, actually the Abel work was disorganized, and it was DURING production. The work by Trumbull and Dykstra was groundbreaking, if anything more advanced and ambitious than Star Wars, and the turned out some 40% of the film in post production.
Totally agree Ado. The revisionism is infuriating. And to think 44 years later think they could "finish" the film. What do I want more of, Trumbull's and Dykstra's masterful work or the new officers lounge scene?
People from the actual production, including Robert Wise, have stated that what was released in theaters in Dec '79 was a rough cut. Ergo, it wasn't finished. For example, they only had 4 days for color timing and that is a process that usually requires weeks. All of this is documented in written and filmed interviews and those like Mike, Dave and Darren, who actually collaborated DIRECTLY with Robert Wise in 2001, really know what they're talking about when they tell you that TMP wasn't even considered finished by the film's director until that DE.
You are certainly free to enjoy that '79 version, but it is essentially a rough cut.
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Posted: |
Mar 20, 2023 - 4:31 AM
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By: |
Ado
(Member)
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The usual old myths, the TMP release in 79 was "botched so badly", well no, it was a completed film, edited and scored and done. There was not the audience screening that Wise wanted, but the film was completed. Also, the post production was not disorganized, actually the Abel work was disorganized, and it was DURING production. The work by Trumbull and Dykstra was groundbreaking, if anything more advanced and ambitious than Star Wars, and the turned out some 40% of the film in post production.
Totally agree Ado. The revisionism is infuriating. And to think 44 years later think they could "finish" the film. What do I want more of, Trumbull's and Dykstra's masterful work or the new officers lounge scene?
People from the actual production, including Robert Wise, have stated that what was released in theaters in Dec '79 was a rough cut. Ergo, it wasn't finished. For example, they only had 4 days for color timing and that is a process that usually requires weeks. All of this is documented in written and filmed interviews and those like Mike, Dave and Darren, who actually collaborated DIRECTLY with Robert Wise in 2001, really know what they're talking about when they tell you that TMP wasn't even considered finished by the film's director until that DE.
You are certainly free to enjoy that '79 version, but it is essentially a rough cut.
Yes, we have heard this before, Wise was a perfectionist, to his credit. But the film in the cans in 1979 was certainly, by any industry standard now, not a 'rough cut'. Todd Ramsay stated that he was cutting the film throughout the production, and Wise was watching the film cut throughout the production. At post production they were really waiting for the effects drop ins. As far as the color timing, well, the color timing for the original cut, hasty or whatever you want to call it, without question looks much more natural and has more verisimilitude with the tone and scope of the entire film. I am sure the fellas had great intentions, and enjoyed brightening the film with more color, but it just looks artificial, like a colorized old film.
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Well that's gotten unexpectedly heated.
Off the bat, a really great podcast. Four hours sounds like too much but I could have listened to more. I'm sorry to say that I can't always tell when it's David or Yavar talking, but it seemed like it was mostly David? Or is that just because I was listening while I was doing other things?
To call the 1979 TMP a successfully finished film is, in itself, revisionist. When you are recording the score a week before the film premiers and the director is delivering the film himself because it's the earliest anyone could get the print then there is something that went wrong.
It's also wrong to retroactively call the film a flop. It made SO much money! But to say that that somehow people changed their minds about the critical acceptance of the film over the years and people thought it was great when it premiered is just wrong. I've been defending the film against both Star Trek fans and otherwise since the week it opened. (I've been defending The Black Hole just as long, but with age I realize that I have less of a leg to stand on there.)
I got about half way through comparing the 79 / 01 / 22 versions frame by frame. As far as I got there were very few (like, I'm hedging my bets because I don't want to commit to 'none') new edits in the 22 compared to the 01. Meaning that all of the edits were under Wise's supervision. (I think there is footage on Vulcan that actually goes BACK to 79 because they couldn't locate the right take in 01.)
I had disagreements with how the audio was handled in 01 but no disagreement that it was work that needed to be done. (And it sounds like Mike shared my opinions.) IMHO the 2022 version fulfills that promise. Gloriously. It sounds finished now.
So far as I've heard (and I've heard a LOT), The Big Three (Matessino, Fine, Dochterman) talk very little about creative changes made in the 22. All of them will talk about how progress in both technology as well as their own skill sets have allowed them to further realize what was part of the grander plan back in 01. I think that is (generously) underselling their own contributions OR (less generously) quickly walking past the changes that Wise necessarily didn't chime in on. For reasons good and ill they want this to be Wise's project.
There are changes in 22 that Goldsmith didn't get to hear. But they all seem in keeping with his attitudes and instructions making the 01. Everything I heard from him and about him was that he didn't consider these changes to be butchering his score or anything like that.
I've heard all three of the leads of this project talk about editing the film for "the big screen". Having seen the 22DE at a Fathom event (a screening that sounded as terrible as described in the podcast - sigh) I have to say that was the right choice. There are new FX shots that I don't think play quite as well on a big TV. But it the cinema they look glorious. The new shot of the Enterprise when Our Heroes appear on the saucer. It looks like you are in the room with the ship!
Totally agree Ado. The revisionism is infuriating. And to think 44 years later think they could "finish" the film. What do I want more of, Trumbull's and Dykstra's masterful work or the new officers lounge scene?
The Officer's Lounge is, I think a mistake both creatively and technically. But they were obviously still trying to tinker with it in 01 even under Wise. The problem with the idea "This is what was intended" skips a few steps. Yes, it was an original idea and it was storyboarded. And maybe with more time they might have tried to complete it that way. But that ship sailed when they built the set that they had. They could have been given another month or six in 79 and that set was never going to change. And the technical execution is one of the stains on the current edition.
But if you can watch the cloud / Vejur flyover and tell me what part of Trumbull and Dykstra's work got altered then you get a cookie. IIRC most of the changes to both of those scenes are the crew reaction shots. They're both a hair shorter but almost none of it is effects work. (And again, I'm only hedging my bets to say that there are none.) There are very few new FX that actually replace old ones. Vulcan, the opening in San Fransisco, and finally the wing walk. So, four matte paintings. I suppose the shots of Vejur shooting the plasma bolts at Earth but those were repurposed shots even in the 79. They added the travel pod to a few shots (which was unnecessary, but oh well). Most of the added FX shots are where there were no FX shots before.
And you have to admit that the recomposited shots such as the Enterprise flyaround and leaving drydock are unmitigated improvements.
As for the people unhappy with even the current revision (is there anyone arguing that the 01 is better than both the 79 and the 22?): Unlike in 2001 both the DE and the theatrical and now even the Special Longer Version are available. So Trekkies have a step up on Star Wars fans.
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Posted: |
Mar 20, 2023 - 6:31 AM
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By: |
Ado
(Member)
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TG,
mostly agree, I do not mind so much the corrections, like the overlap in the layers in the Enterprise flyaround with the space dock, most of the sound is better, but occasionally some of the sound effects, non-voice stuff, is too forward and loud, sometimes downright aggressive. I always felt every bit of the cloud voyage was needed, it was flawless in 79, it never needed a trim. The lounge bit, well, it is an absolute disaster they created, and I cannot quite grasp why the released it this way, it is a total botch job, they should have just cleaned up the 79 cut of this scene and left well enough alone. I have never been bothered at all by the original lounge scene, in fact, I think the smallness of the set, and the starkness of the windows with the darkness outside works entirely do the advantage of the scene. What these guys did not always grasp is that 'happy accidents' occurred along the way in 79 that, despite being considered 'thrown together' at the time, worked entirely to the benefit of the film. The lounge scene, the lack of the full shot of Vger, the expanse long cuts played with the uninterrupted music, all works very strongly to the benefit of this film. As for the music, yes, Jerry was scoring bits late into post, but he also was working on this film an extraordinary long amount of time, something unheard of nowadays. The idea that Jerry was left a week to score this film or something, that is just incorrect.
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I’ve never heard a single person claim that Jerry Goldsmith only had a week (or even two) to score this film. I’ve never heard anything like that; this was not a Chinatown situation.
But thinking everything was normal and reasonable and fine with the post production of the ‘79 film is just nuts. There are TONS of quotes from MANY people involved with the film to back this up — and not from years later looking back. There’s a reason Fred Steiner wrote over 20 minutes of this score. Does anyone seriously believe that Goldsmith wouldn’t have preferred to finish his masterwork on his own? Like, maybe he would have still given the two Captain’s Log sequences to Courage but there is no reason Steiner would have scored THAT much, aside from the situation being entirely insane. There is no other Goldsmith score of the era which had anything like this happen. Morton Stevens writing a *single* cue for Outland is the closest example. (Masada was a different thing.)
Yavar
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The idea that Jerry was left a week to score this film or something, that is just incorrect.
I'm going to object that I implied any such thing. ST:TMP is one of my favorite scores of all time if not my single favorite. I have bought this score more times than Star Wars. (But not Superman.)
It's more that if Jerry was scoring that late it further illustrates how behind the curve they were. There should have been more work after he was done and there just wasn't. Because of the time crunch whatever he wrote got used (much like the effects). Even though that wasn't his intention while he was writing it.
Many (most?) films are worked on up to the last moment. But very few are this unready to be done AND are meant to be such a prestigious film.
One of the things I was astonished to discover when the latest LLL discs came out last summer was that even with Jerry recording a week before the film was released the LP was still in the shops on December 7th right along with the film!
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I’ve never heard a single person claim that Jerry Goldsmith only had a week (or even two) to score this film. I’ve never heard anything like that; this was not a Chinatown situation.
But thinking everything was normal and reasonable and fine with the post production of the ‘79 film is just nuts. There are TONS of quotes from MANY people involved with the film to back this up — and not from years later looking back. There’s a reason Fred Steiner wrote over 20 minutes of this score. Does anyone seriously believe that Goldsmith wouldn’t have preferred to finish his masterwork on his own? Like, maybe he would have still given the two Captain’s Log sequences to Courage but there is no reason Steiner would have scored THAT much, aside from the situation being entirely insane. There is no other Goldsmith score of the era which had anything like this happen. Morton Stevens writing a *single* cue for Outland is the closest example. (Masada was a different thing.)
Yavar
I never thought about it like that. I don't know what Goldsmith would have written but I love the Fred Steiner stuff!
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The pasty color of Kirk's face in bottom one reminds me of the colorized versions of old black & white films (like The Sea Hawk) that were foisted on us not so long ago.
Yeah, as I said above, the bottom one was only likely a screencap. I couldn't be sure, but at the time it was all I could find, and I couldn't do it myself. It's not the greatest representation of the quality of the images, just the difference between color gradings.
Here, maybe this is a better way to see it. All of these are direct screencaps, pulled from TrekCore, except the one from the DE (top left - they haven't screen-capped this edition yet). Even if it isn't a screencap, but is blown out due to being a snap of a TV screen - and that certainly can happen - to my eyes, it still matches the other films better than does the '79 (top right).
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The idea that Jerry was left a week to score this film or something, that is just incorrect.
I'm going to object that I implied any such thing.
This looked like mere misunderstanding, other tall guy. Ado seems to be referring to something he heard elsewhere, and the closest thing I see said here is, "When you are recording the score a week before the film premiers..." and that's true, Jerry was indeed recording right up to the week of release (okay, maybe he stopped recording a day or so before the seven day week, but Nov. 30th is close enough, and he was mixing into the wee hours of Dec. 2nd, I think, for the Dec. 7th wide release).
He also recorded a lot of stuff in previous weeks, and previous months, but your point was that the music was still being recorded that late, not that he had only a week to score or record all of it.
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