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Copy that. Everyone loves to blast Frank Miller, who worked wonders with a "B" character like Daredevil and then wrote an inspired new origin for Batman: Year One (illustrated by David Mazzucchelli), but the edgier Batman really began years earlier at the hands of the four creators you referenced. Matt Reeves' The Batman feels like a fusion of Miller's and Grant Morrison's takes, the latter portraying Bruce Wayne as a recluse, not a millionaire playboy.
Right or wrong, Frank Miller gets the credit for the dark and edgy Batman because of the other Batman story he did that you don't mention (we won't talk about Spawn/Batman): Dark Knight Returns. That story is arguably the most influential Batman story ever published. The story got mainstream coverage in many articles at the time, often talking about how comic book stories had "grown up". It was reprinted to trade paperback when 99% of comics were not getting reprinted into collections. Artists, including greats like John Byrne, stole, excuse me, took inspiration from, the art style from the story, and those writing Batman started to lean into a darker Batman. Miller may not have started the trend, but he ran with it and kicked it up several notches.
Take, for example, this scene:
Dark Knight Returns was many readers' first Batman story or first Batman story in a long time, and was enormously popular as it was such a contrast to the mainstream view on Batman, which was Adam West. Of course, most people seem to forget that this is an extremely bitter Bruce Wayne, who spent years and years fighting to save Gotham only to see it in worse shape then before he started. So of course he finally snaps. Aside from killing people. Which is probably where people get his "one rule" philosophy that Nolan ran with in Dark Knight.
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Posted: |
Feb 5, 2023 - 12:34 PM
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By: |
drop_forge
(Member)
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Right or wrong, Frank Miller gets the credit for the dark and edgy Batman because of the other Batman story he did that you don't mention (we won't talk about Spawn/Batman): Dark Knight Returns. That story is arguably the most influential Batman story ever published.
I didn't mention The Dark Knight Returns because everyone is familiar with it or should be. The hoopla surrounding it was enormous, all the way up to Miller getting interviewed by Rolling Stone. I had a devil of a time sourcing first printings of the first two issues because there was only one small (still new) shop in my area and they weren't able to get many copies (and their biggest buyers got dibs, naturally).
Btw, that last horizontal panel is a signature Miller trope (action conveyed left-to-right) which he used frequently in Daredevil.
Miller accomplished a lot by the time he hit thirty. Had he vanished, changed his identity, etc., he'd still be a legend for everything he'd done up through 1986, especially my favorite Miller work, Ronin.
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SO agree with the last few Bat statements. The Neal Adams era IS the one that deserves credit but is overshadowed by Miller.
The worst influence of Miller's is the Michelin Man Batman. As seen in the ZnyderBatVerse. It's bad enough we believe in a man without super powers who can swing between buildings. But built like a tank???
And while we're at it, I hate stupid voices too. If we can believe Superman is disguised by a pair of glasses, for gawds sake leave the voice normal. Unless you have Kevin Conroy's talent.
Oh. And I LOVE Adam West!
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So far I think the best distillation on screen of the whole thing is the Animated Series that was basically a cash in on the then film franchise, i.e. the Burton films.
I was mildly excited with what Affleck planned, not actually believing it would happen. Shame, because I really liked his take on the character. As long as he ditched the Michelin Man suit.
I've yet to see the latest version. Missed it at the cinema. First time for a standalone Batfilm. Still plan to of course.
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It's so funny to bring the conversation to here, when by all accounts and purposes Denny O'Neil and Neal Adams initially brought the darker edge back to Batman following what the 1966 -1968 TV series and movie adaptation had done with the character. And the subsequent Detective Comics Batman run by Steve Englehart and Marshall Rogers served as a good "ground zero" template for what Tim Burton and later Bruce Timm/Paul Dini did with Batman in those respective films and animated TV series later. That "dark" resuscitation of Batman began following the Adam West series and continued onwards through two decades of Batman comic books and beyond.
A "darker edge" yes. They dumped the cheesy "Batman becomes Bat-Baby" sorta thing but he was still not a depressing, moody bully. He was driven but Bruce Wayne wasn't a weird shut in either. He did have relationships, Batman could smile and find humor in certain things. Miller gave us "who am I? Are you retarded? I'm the goddamn Batman!"
To be fair, Miller's vision was a "tired, in his 50's Batman" in a grim future and his "Year One" was a really good story about Bruce getting started. I enjoy "The Batman Family" which is a great but serious format that The Animated Series played up well. Batman, Robin, Nightwing, Batgirl, etc. and a plethora of villains who weren't the same few. I honestly have had my fill of The Joker for awhile.
Nolan came close but didn't embrace the comics. Burton went too far into his own freaky psyche for his follow up to his original (and Bruce was a weirdo - that was the point). Joel Schumacher went too far into the colors and circus, but I kinda like Batman Forever for effectively healing Bruce to a degree.
But really, I like them all in one way or another. I am interested to see what the current Batman series ends up being.
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SO agree with the last few Bat statements. The Neal Adams era IS the one that deserves credit but is overshadowed by Miller.
The worst influence of Miller's is the Michelin Man Batman. As seen in the ZnyderBatVerse. It's bad enough we believe in a man without super powers who can swing between buildings. But built like a tank???
I agree with you, but to be fair, Zack Snyder based his take on Batman on Dark Knight Returns. There are scenes and bits of dialogue directly lifted from Dark Knight Returns in Batman vs. Superman, and in DKR, Miller drew Batman to be this gigantic, built like a tank character. And that was a Batman coming out of retirement! I much prefer the Neal Adams and Jose Luis Garcia-Lopez take on the character, which is more like an Olympic level gymnast.
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Posted: |
Feb 6, 2023 - 3:28 PM
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By: |
drop_forge
(Member)
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Yeah, Janson was an MVP inker at that time. And for a few decades to follow.
Such an instantly recognizable style, too! Then they gave him the monthly Punisher book and that just made him more popular.
The 1980s was definitely when the Big Two started to feel the heat from indie publishers. I think that is where the big age group increase happened as well, as indie publishers we're taking more risks and even Marvel and DC were realizing that the audience was aging up with the comics. Not that the aforementioned O'Neil/Adams DC work wasn't creating stories focused on huge adult themes like addiction and loss in the earlier decade.
I can only imagine the shockwaves that that cover of Green Lantern/Green Arrow sent forth when it hit the newsstands. Marvel's stock may have overtaken DC's in the mid-'70s, but DC was usually ahead of the curve when it came to pushing the envelope where edgier themes were concerned. Of course, it was also based on who was plotting, scripting, drawing, editing, etc. The Big Two were involved in a never-ending game of leapfrog. DC's horror anthology line was so much better than Marvel's 4-color horror, but then Marvel started up the b&w magazines to compete with Warren's, and then they debuted Epic Illustrated as their answer to Heavy Metal. While Epic lasted only 34 issues, it presented some damned fine content that endures to this day.
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