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 Posted:   Dec 10, 2022 - 5:33 PM   
 By:   Last Child   (Member)

James Horner’s score to Star Trek II: The Wrath of Kahn has some interesting similarities with Mahler’s Symphony #1 “The Titan”.

And I always thought it was McHale's Navy, slowed down.

 
 Posted:   Dec 10, 2022 - 6:37 PM   
 By:   Solium   (Member)

James Horner’s score to Star Trek II: The Wrath of Kahn has some interesting similarities with Mahler’s Symphony #1 “The Titan”.

And I always thought it was McHale's Navy, slowed down.



Don't hear it. Then again maybe you're joking.

 
 Posted:   Dec 10, 2022 - 6:39 PM   
 By:   Solium   (Member)

James Horner’s score to Star Trek II: The Wrath of Kahn has some interesting similarities with Mahler’s Symphony #1 “The Titan”.

(By the way, I have a nuanced opinion of Horner as a composer. I believe he was very gifted, and his scores are enjoyable and are almost always great assets to the films he scored. On the other hand, while many composers have intentionally or unintentionally referenced the work of others, I believe Horner did so to a greater extent – not just in frequency but also in the directness of the references. I do entertain the idea that some of Horner’s referencing was to make a purposeful and meaningful connection to an existing composition, while at the same time acknowledging that his re-use of existing music was more to keep up with the insane pace of film-scoring and less about making a grand intellectual statement.)

The Wrath of Khan’s End Title begins in a similar fashion to the Mahler symphony. On their own, these very few notes would seem inconsequential and coincidental. (Yes, I know that Horner didn't compose the Star Trek theme, but the setting is similar.) Listen to the beginning of the first video below.

However, the End Title also ENDS in a similar fashion, with both similar fanfare work and the final two-note cadence. Listen starting at 17:20 in the third video below.

Maybe that is still not very convincing, but the similarity between a recurring fanfare throughout the Mahler work and a fanfare in “Enterprise Clears Moorings” is stronger. Listen to the Mahler fanfare beginning at 15:13 in the third video below.

I think there are more similarities in the brass work. Take, for example, the samples starting at 13:02 in the first video below and 6:45 in the second video below.

Finally, Kirk’s theme shares the same contours as a recurring theme throughout the Mahler symphony. Some examples are at 0:24 and 1:06 in the third video below. You might be more convinced if you see examples of Mahler’s written score on the Wikipedia page for his first symphony.

All in all, I don’t think that Horner was merely “ripping” off the Mahler symphony. Especially with the similar first notes and last notes, I believe that Horner was making a deliberate reference and maybe had some intellectual reason for doing so. (Or perhaps the film was temped with the Mahler symphony…) In any case, I find the similarities interesting, and I very much enjoy both compositions.


I kinda hear Spocks theme (or was it the Genesis Theme?) in the beginning of the first video. The other examples I don't see a direct correlation.

 
 
 Posted:   Dec 11, 2022 - 2:49 AM   
 By:   fmfan1   (Member)

I kinda hear Spocks theme (or was it the Genesis Theme?) in the beginning of the first video. The other examples I don't see a direct correlation.

Yes, I was associating the beginning of the Mahler symphony with the beginning of the Star Trek theme as arranged by Horner, but the first 4 notes do have the shape of Spock's theme!

I'm curious what you meant by "direct correlation." Were you commenting that you don't hear the similarities or that you don't think they are strong enough to support a premise that Horner was knowingly referencing the Mahler symphony in his score? I appreciate your thoughts either way. (And your comment about Spock's theme only strengthens the connection between the two works in my mind.) smile

 
 Posted:   Dec 11, 2022 - 8:40 AM   
 By:   Solium   (Member)

I kinda hear Spocks theme (or was it the Genesis Theme?) in the beginning of the first video. The other examples I don't see a direct correlation.

Yes, I was associating the beginning of the Mahler symphony with the beginning of the Star Trek theme as arranged by Horner, but the first 4 notes do have the shape of Spock's theme!

I'm curious what you meant by "direct correlation." Were you commenting that you don't hear the similarities or that you don't think they are strong enough to support a premise that Horner was knowingly referencing the Mahler symphony in his score? I appreciate your thoughts either way. (And your comment about Spock's theme only strengthens the connection between the two works in my mind.) smile


Yes and yes. I directly hear a similarity between Spocks theme and the beginning of the piece. The other examples you gave I find more of a coincidence in they are not unique musical progressions. That doesn't mean he didn't build upon those ideas. I dunno. You could be onto something.

 
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