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 Posted:   Jun 2, 2022 - 8:39 AM   
 By:   W. David Lichty [Lorien]   (Member)

....the only time it works for me, because its a storytelling thing is in CLOSE ENCOUNTERS , when we hear "When you wish upon a star".Which makes sense for Roy Neary`s Character

It's also incorporated so much more organically than these usually are, and beautifully. I almost cited that same example as an exception myself; it leapt right to mind.

 
 
 Posted:   Jun 2, 2022 - 9:27 AM   
 By:   Spymaster   (Member)

The usage of (or falling-back upon) a well-known musical phrase is what many of us listeners consider grunt-worthy and it can ruin the entire album experience.

You do realise that Einstein plays "Twinkle Twinkle Little Star" on a violin in the movie, right? Hence it was embedded right there in the script. It's perfectly reasonable that Goldsmith embedded it into his score.

It doesn't ruin the album experience - it IS the album experience!

 
 Posted:   Jun 2, 2022 - 9:34 AM   
 By:   Yavar Moradi   (Member)

For what it's worth I'm not saying it isn't reasonable or understandable as a film score; I'm just saying I don't care much for it musically.

In addition to the above list, I'll add that I would like The River Wild and Wild Rovers much better if Goldsmith hadn't adapted a pre-existing song as his main theme of each score (not that he did a poor job of it either time; I just find original Goldsmith themes far more interesting and compelling). Whenever someone lists Wild Rovers as Goldsmith's best western score I just scratch my head.

Yavar

 
 Posted:   Jun 3, 2022 - 1:10 AM   
 By:   Nicolai P. Zwar   (Member)



In addition to the above list, I'll add that I would like The River Wild and Wild Rovers much better if Goldsmith hadn't adapted a pre-existing song as his main theme of each score (not that he did a poor job of it either time; I just find original Goldsmith themes far more interesting and compelling). Whenever someone lists Wild Rovers as Goldsmith's best western score I just scratch my head.

Yavar


I feel exactly the other way around, I think Goldsmith was tremendously well at adapting those themes. THE RIVER WILD is gorgeous (when I first saw the movie in the 1990s, I actually thought this was a Goldsmith theme, because I was unfamiliar with the song. It sounded very much like a Goldsmith original theme to me.), and WILD ROVERS is indeed second to none in Goldsmith's western output.

 
 
 Posted:   Jun 3, 2022 - 8:58 AM   
 By:   KeV McG   (Member)

Hi Yavar, re your question...
It wasn't just the triangle tinkling that put me off SHAMUS.
I never warmed to the main theme and found the small points of interest in the score...well... I kinda already had (in better form) in things like LAST RUN and ESCAPE POTA.

And I absolutely love WILD ROVERS smile

 
 Posted:   Jun 3, 2022 - 1:22 PM   
 By:   Diederik   (Member)

I find it quite amusing to read these differing responses to IQ and other Goldsmith scores. It seems Goldsmith is almost universally loved, yet at the same time he can be quite polarizing. It seems that if you put two Goldsmith fans together, they'll end up passionately disagreeing on the scores they love and hate.

I guess that's what we love about him. His enormous creativity and the unique approaches he took to the films he scored, resulted in many off-the-beaten-path scores that you either seem to love or hate. Taken all together however, that diversity and creativity make him one of the greats.

And I am still loving IQ!

 
 Posted:   Jun 3, 2022 - 3:01 PM   
 By:   Yavar Moradi   (Member)

I feel exactly the other way around, I think Goldsmith was tremendously well at adapting those themes.

Oh, it's not that I think Goldsmith adapted these pre-existing melodies poorly (Wild Rovers in particular he makes his own, and The River Wild is a very nice arrangement too). It's just that I would have FAR preferred original Goldsmith thematic ideas throughout these scores.

THE RIVER WILD is gorgeous (when I first saw the movie in the 1990s, I actually thought this was a Goldsmith theme, because I was unfamiliar with the song. It sounded very much like a Goldsmith original theme to me.), and WILD ROVERS is indeed second to none in Goldsmith's western output.

For me... 100 Rifles, Lonely Are the Brave, Bandolero, Rio Conchos, Rio Lobo, Hour of the Gun, The Red Pony, and One Little Indian (bar the few Lawrence of Arabia riffs of course) all leave it in the dust. Heck, I even prefer his early two, Black Patch and Face of a Fugitive -- because they're dominated by great original Goldsmith melodies! (He's so underrated as a tunesmith, really.)

My dislike of musical quotations in film music isn't limited to Goldsmith, either. Usually it just takes me out of the movie because it's musically referencing stuff outside of the movie, I guess. I find purely original film music more immersive. I wish to high heaven that Ernest Gold had been able to write and develop an original main theme for his On the Beach score, rather than being made to adapt "Waltzing Matilda" (even though he did adapt it wonderfully!)

The frequent quotations of popular tunes and such in many scores by Max Steiner and other Golden Agers also usually bother me. It's very rare than a quotation is SO well integrated that I love it, such as "When You Wish Upon a Star" when Williams includes it in Close Encounters of the Third Kind. The exception that proves the rule, for me.

Oddly enough one of these exceptions is that I've grown to love Goldsmith's quotations of "When Johnny Comes Marching Home" throughout his score to Small Soldiers... but the various quotations throughout King Solomon's Mines? Hate 'em.

Yavar

 
 Posted:   Jun 3, 2022 - 3:36 PM   
 By:   Nicolai P. Zwar   (Member)



THE RIVER WILD is gorgeous (when I first saw the movie in the 1990s, I actually thought this was a Goldsmith theme, because I was unfamiliar with the song. It sounded very much like a Goldsmith original theme to me.), and WILD ROVERS is indeed second to none in Goldsmith's western output.

For me... 100 Rifles, Lonely Are the Brave, Bandolero, Rio Conchos, Rio Lobo, Hour of the Gun, The Red Pony, and One Little Indian (bar the few Lawrence of Arabia riffs of course) all leave it in the dust. Heck, I even prefer his early two, Black Patch and Face of a Fugitive -- because they're dominated by great original Goldsmith melodies! (He's so underrated as a tunesmith, really.)


My favorite Goldsmith western scores are WILD ROVERS, HOUR OF THE GUN, and BANDOLERO!, and then RIO CONCHOS? But what the heck, they are all great and I love the others too. But WILD ROVERS is definitely in the very top.


My dislike of musical quotations in film music isn't limited to Goldsmith, either. Usually it just takes me out of the movie because it's musically referencing stuff outside of the movie, I guess.


I feel differently, for me the use or reference of another theme or motif can be like a commentary or a "connecting the dots" of one thing to another. I love it when Bartok satirically quotes Shostakovich or Beethoven repurposes his themes or Rachmaninoff builds an entire composition out of a Paganini theme, which Rózsa also used as a main theme in a film score. I have zero qualms with film composers doing likewise.

 
 Posted:   Jun 3, 2022 - 4:43 PM   
 By:   Sean Nethery   (Member)

Chiming in on Fierce Creatures. I only listen to this once in a while, and haven't in years. But as I'm listening now I remember that I always feel the same way - what a great opportunity for Goldsmith. He sounds like he's having a lot of fun, and the album plays just beautifully for me.

I particularly love the very faint vibe of Stravinsky I get, from a composer so mature and assured that it's just a hint of flavor, unlike some of his more blatant hat tips. (In the To the Zoo track, for example.) Plus the lovely idea of solo cello running through, evoking The Swan from Saint-Saens' Carnival of the Animals. Just very fun, if only occasionally quite what I expect from him. More proof he had one of the biggest toolboxes in film music.

I don't really think scores like Mr. Baseball or I.Q. or even Looney Tunes BinA are best served on album, as the music is intentionally so tied to the visuals. The musical logic is utterly subordinate to the film action. This is usually true to some degree for all movies, but more so in comedy, where things change on a dime for reasons that don't really make musical sense. I appreciate that some folks here really enjoy Looney Tunes and even S.P.Y.S., but for me, as with Carl Stalling for example, hearing the music in the film is all I want.

 
 Posted:   Jun 3, 2022 - 7:55 PM   
 By:   W. David Lichty [Lorien]   (Member)

Chiming in on Fierce Creatures. I only listen to this once in a while, and haven't in years. But as I'm listening now I remember that I always feel the same way - what a great opportunity for Goldsmith. He sounds like he's having a lot of fun, and the album plays just beautifully for me.

Doesn't it? it's a great little album.

Backstage after one of his concerts, he flipped through a little stack of CD covers, signing the ones he liked or had something to say about. When he got to that (and autographed it), he said, "Oh! Somebody bought this one."

I said, "Yeah, I really like that one. It's such a different sound for you. Thanks for the extra 10 minutes, by the way."

He said, "Well, I had to! They wanted to make a CD."

 
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