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 Posted:   Aug 31, 2018 - 5:04 AM   
 By:   Jim Phelps   (Member)

There's an early '80s issue of IRON MAN in which the now-late Steve Ditko was the artist. Ditko refused to ever depict a hero in an unheroic state, so Marie Severin was brought in to illustrate the issue's splash page. It is of a drunken Tony Stark wearing the Iron Man armor sans the helmet, ranting in the middle of a bar like an FSMer who didn't get his BSX order.

 
 Posted:   Aug 31, 2018 - 7:37 AM   
 By:   drop_forge   (Member)

The saga of Tony Stark, Iron Alcoholic was akin to those classic Green Lantern/Green Arrow issues that dealt with addiction: taking comics into regions previously unexplored.

It's too bad the movies depict Tony Stark like such a clown.

 
 Posted:   Aug 31, 2018 - 8:10 AM   
 By:   Jim Phelps   (Member)

The saga of Tony Stark, Iron Alcoholic was akin to those classic Green Lantern/Green Arrow issues that dealt with addiction: taking comics into regions previously unexplored.

It's too bad the movies depict Tony Stark like such a clown.


Denny O'Neil, baby! IIRC, he is a recovering alcoholic, so he ought to know about the perils of alcohol abuse. It's become trendy for aging fans to slag O'Neil's writing, but I've always found his work interesting--and that's at the very least. We as comic fans should be forever grateful for O'Neil's contributions to Batman, as a writer and perhaps even more importantly, as an editor.

 
 Posted:   Aug 31, 2018 - 8:28 AM   
 By:   Sean Nethery   (Member)

Denny O'Neil, baby!

Seconded, and for his classic Ra's al Ghul stories alone, and the Shadow tales with Kaluta, plus as you say all his work on Batman, and The Question, on and on! I even enjoyed his novelizing of the Knightfall story - which I read long before I read the comics issues.

 
 Posted:   Aug 31, 2018 - 11:05 AM   
 By:   drop_forge   (Member)

The saga of Tony Stark, Iron Alcoholic was akin to those classic Green Lantern/Green Arrow issues that dealt with addiction: taking comics into regions previously unexplored.

It's too bad the movies depict Tony Stark like such a clown.


Denny O'Neil, baby! IIRC, he is a recovering alcoholic, so he ought to know about the perils of alcohol abuse. It's become trendy for aging fans to slag O'Neil's writing, but I've always found his work interesting--and that's at the very least. We as comic fans should be forever grateful for O'Neil's contributions to Batman, as a writer and perhaps even more importantly, as an editor.


Denny's one of the greats, as far as I'm concerned. Not just GL/GA and Batman, but also The Question. That should be turned into a movie or a show. Now that DC's launched a service for their original content, it shouldn't be as hard to see more stuff translated to live action.

 
 Posted:   Aug 31, 2018 - 11:05 AM   
 By:   drop_forge   (Member)

Denny O'Neil, baby!

Seconded, and for his classic Ra's al Ghul stories alone, and the Shadow tales with Kaluta, plus as you say all his work on Batman, and The Question, on and on! I even enjoyed his novelizing of the Knightfall story - which I read long before I read the comics issues.


Denny also novelized Batman Begins and The Dark Knight.

 
 Posted:   Aug 31, 2018 - 11:11 PM   
 By:   Michael Scorefan   (Member)

It's become trendy for aging fans to slag O'Neil's writing, but I've always found his work interesting--and that's at the very least. We as comic fans should be forever grateful for O'Neil's contributions to Batman, as a writer and perhaps even more importantly, as an editor.

Agreed about Denny O'Neil. He helped shape Batman from the silly version during the Adam West era, to a darker, more serious character. He certainly helped shape my view of the character. As a kid, I owned the below book, which reprinted "Half an Evil" and "Ghost of the Killer Skies" by Denny O'Neil and Neal Adams. These were some of the earliest Batman stories I read, and I loved them both.



I was less fond of his Marvel work, although admittedly Iron Man's solo book is usually a hard sell for me. Despite having some tremendous talent involved, the stories were more miss than hit for me. That said Demon in the Bottle, Armor Wars, and Iron Man's time traveling adventures with Doctor Doom are some stories I loved. Back to O'Neil and Marvel, I do love the two Spider-Man annuals he did with Frank Miller.

 
 Posted:   Sep 1, 2018 - 8:00 AM   
 By:   Jim Phelps   (Member)

The publication of these splendid Conway volumes begs the question: When will DC get around to republishing the Englehart-Rogers stuff? The "Strange Apparitions" tpb has been oop for ages.

Not sure if they'll do Doug Moench's 1983-86 run on Batman and Detective. I'm fond of it, though it does get bogged down with soap opera-like tendencies (the Nocturna storyline and the Bats-Catwoman lovey dovey material).

 
 Posted:   Sep 1, 2018 - 8:55 AM   
 By:   drop_forge   (Member)

Doug's run rocked! The 'Nocturna' arc was splendid. Batman's had so many great writers handle it.

 
 Posted:   Sep 2, 2018 - 6:49 AM   
 By:   Jim Phelps   (Member)

Doug's run rocked! The 'Nocturna' arc was splendid. Batman's had so many great writers handle it.

Moench has long been one of my favorite writers. However, Gerry Conway, at least his DC stories, have given him the edge lately.

With Moench, I feel that his second run on Batman (1992-98) was even better than his first. No mean feat considering the bad rap (and rep) comics in the '90s have. The Bat books and DC in general fared well in my view. Of course, I'm primarily a DC fan anyway, so I would say that.

Something I'd like to submit to the "Bat Panel":

The Grant-Breyfogle (1989-92 or thereabouts) is widely considered one of the better Batman eras, and while I some enjoy aspects of it, much of it leaves me cold. It's not a matter of quality, because that crew never did a truly awful story, but rather a matter of my (possibly lack of) personal taste.

Alan Grant's writing in general. I don't care for many of his "pet" villains, nor the absence of the classic Batman enemies. Grant leaves out the Batman supporting cast, who are rarely, if ever, seen. There are also too many drug stories, which all feel--combined with the art--very late '80s, a time period I dislike. Don't get me wrong: I love "dated", but I dislike that specific era, which the numerous WWF and video game ads constantly drive home.

On an unrelated note, the paper quality of that period is even worse than the comics I had as a kid! I think the move to weekly or biweekly publication led to the cheaper paper.

 
 Posted:   Sep 3, 2018 - 1:35 AM   
 By:   Michael Scorefan   (Member)


Something I'd like to submit to the "Bat Panel":

The Grant-Breyfogle (1989-92 or thereabouts) is widely considered one of the better Batman eras, and while I some enjoy aspects of it, much of it leaves me cold. It's not a matter of quality, because that crew never did a truly awful story, but rather a matter of my (possibly lack of) personal taste.

Alan Grant's writing in general. I don't care for many of his "pet" villains, nor the absence of the classic Batman enemies. Grant leaves out the Batman supporting cast, who are rarely, if ever, seen. There are also too many drug stories, which all feel--combined with the art--very late '80s, a time period I dislike. Don't get me wrong: I love "dated", but I dislike that specific era, which the numerous WWF and video game ads constantly drive home.

On an unrelated note, the paper quality of that period is even worse than the comics I had as a kid! I think the move to weekly or biweekly publication led to the cheaper paper.


I haven't read this run since, well, it was released, so my recollection of it is pretty vague at this point. I hope to revisit at least some of this run relatively soon, perhaps when the second collection of Breyfogle's Batman work is released. Hopefully the run holds up after all these years.

You make a fair point about him and his pet villains. In particular, I never cared for the Ventriloquist, and his annoying speech impediment, or Anarky. I suppose when writers take on a character as iconic as Batman, they try to leave their mark by introducing new villains and characters, often at the expense of some of the existing ones. I still enjoy Grant's work on the character, and Breyfogle is by far my favorite Batman artist to debut in the late '80s. Hopefully I still enjoy the run when I revisit it!

Batman being involved in a lot of drug stories during the late '80s/early '90s is definitely a product of its time. Drug dealers were the great evil during that time period, and pretty much every part of pop culture from that time featured a protagonist at odds with some drug dealer or other. Not even James Bond was immune!

 
 Posted:   Sep 7, 2018 - 4:04 AM   
 By:   Jim Phelps   (Member)

For the story's 25th anniversary, DC is publishing a nine-volume trade paperback edition of KNIGHTFALL. I have most of the original (post back break) issues, as well as the three-volume trades from some years back, but for those who don't have any of this stuff, what a great way to delve into this hallowed storyline.

 
 Posted:   Sep 7, 2018 - 2:49 PM   
 By:   Sean Nethery   (Member)

For the story's 25th anniversary, DC is publishing a nine-volume trade paperback edition of KNIGHTFALL. I have most of the original (post back break) issues, as well as the three-volume trades from some years back, but for those who don't have any of this stuff, what a great way to delve into this hallowed storyline.

Yeah, those three trades were how I finally read the Knightfall series - still have a bit to go in the last volume. Didn't do much for me after the really excellent one-off introduction of Bane - that was first rate.

But then I'm more of a dipper into the Batman history than you blokes - I don't recognize Breyfogle at all except that I've seen the collections, even if I've read some of the stories.

What a dilettante am I!

 
 
 Posted:   Sep 7, 2018 - 3:07 PM   
 By:   The Wanderer   (Member)

Growing up reading Alan Grant's 2000AD stuff meant I really liked his DC work too. I read comics from about 88 to 95. Breyfogle was my favourite Bat artist. Loved his expressive faces and tremendous cape-flaring drawing style. Haven't read them since then but a lot stuck with me. I liked the inclusion of lesser villains too.

 
 
 Posted:   Sep 7, 2018 - 4:20 PM   
 By:   Timmer   (Member)

Russ Heath = phenom. Feast your eyes on THIS! NO zip-a-tone. ALL shading = hatching (except for the shadows under the tracks and the underside of the cannon.



Fantastically detailed art and yet the artist didn't do his homework on getting the Tiger right. That chassis is nearly as wrong as the Tiger's used in Kelly's Heroes and Saving Private Ryan.

I'll give no prizes to anyone here who can tell me what the problem is.

 
 
 Posted:   Sep 8, 2018 - 1:16 AM   
 By:   The Wanderer   (Member)

Timmer, it seems okay compared to Tiger Tank pics on the interwebs (i dunno meself). What's the other mistake? "I gots to know!"

That art is great. Reminded me i loved/love Joe Kubert's Sgt Rock and everything else he did.

 
 Posted:   Sep 8, 2018 - 6:12 AM   
 By:   Jim Phelps   (Member)

Yeah, those three trades were how I finally read the Knightfall series - still have a bit to go in the last volume. Didn't do much for me after the really excellent one-off introduction of Bane - that was first rate.

Those are the trades I have, but these latest ones include even more issues, though for some, the three trades are more than enough. I'll have to venture to my local comic shop and have a look at these latest books, though.

But then I'm more of a dipper into the Batman history than you blokes - I don't recognize Breyfogle at all except that I've seen the collections, even if I've read some of the stories.

What a dilettante am I!


My preferred era of Batman is roughly 1978-86; 1993-1998. I haven't read all of the Englehart-Rogers run, but I liked the few of the few they did. wink I've grown to loathe the swollen, hideously 1980s-ness of THE DARK KNIGHT RETURNS, especially the shitty art.

However, I will admit that the '90s material I like so much benefits from Miller's having renewed the gritty Batman that Denny O'Neil had already revitalized 15 years before Miller. Of course, rock steady writers like Doug Moench (probably my favorite comic writer) and Chuck Dixon are what make it worthwhile for me.

In general, I prefer the pre-CRISIS-TDKR Batman and DCU.

 
 Posted:   Sep 8, 2018 - 9:26 AM   
 By:   drop_forge   (Member)

Miller's art first got wacky with TDKR, especially in the wake of the brilliant inventiveness on display in Ronin.

But I assume you *do* like Batman: Year One, written by Miller, drawn by Mazz. As far as origin reboots go, it exceeds The Untold Legend of The Batman and was the blueprint for Nolan's ...Begins.

 
 Posted:   Sep 8, 2018 - 9:29 AM   
 By:   drop_forge   (Member)

Fantastically detailed art and yet the artist didn't do his homework on getting the Tiger right. That chassis is nearly as wrong as the Tiger's used in Kelly's Heroes and Saving Private Ryan.

I'll give no prizes to anyone here who can tell me what the problem is.


When the art's THAT freakin' good, it doesn't matter. big grin

 
 Posted:   Sep 8, 2018 - 9:32 AM   
 By:   Jim Phelps   (Member)

Miller's art first got wacky with TDKR, especially in the wake of the brilliant inventiveness on display in Ronin.

But I assume you *do* like Batman: Year One, written by Miller, drawn by Mazz. As far as origin reboots go, it exceeds The Untold Legend of The Batman and was the blueprint for Nolan's ...Begins.


YEAR ONE is tremendously good, though more for Miller than Mazz. However, when it comes to Frank Miller AND David Mazzuchelli, their work--individually and collaboratively--shines most in DAREDEVIL.

...and there I go again, talking about Marvel in the DC thread! wink

 
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