Zardoz/ToneRow, I hope I didn't discourage you from sharing more of your thoughts -- even if I/we may disagree, we value all feedback (and much we do indeed take to heart).
Yeah - I won't post as much as I planned because it appears that some of my topics have already been considered by your trio beforehand ... and that - on some of the material - Yavar had gotten 'out-voted' (so to speak) by the other two panel members.
So ... carry onwards, gentlemen, and I promise not to be too long-winded in my future feedback.
Yavar, I like the podcast on Face of a Fugitive. The Railroad/train motif was my favorite. It is interesting to hear his early beginnings. That one long action cue you play certainly shows the genesis or the early beginnings of his action writing style (with thematic building blocks as you noted) that later becomes fully developed and more sophisticated in cues like “Through The Trees” in Lonely Are The Brave.
I could hear this motifs and themes in your podcast. He already seems to be taking big strides in this western and in The Black Patch. Within a short time after this western, I thought he really became an expert at MEMORABLE, more extended themes in his westerns like Rio Conchos, Lonely Are The Brave, Stagecoach, and other future westerns.
I'm not entirely sure you made your Bernard Herrmann quota this time LOL!
My gosh, I just received my Early Years this weekend and talk about a purchase made even more interesting through listening to Odyssey!
I thought there was more about specific motifs in this one, and it's obvious everyone involved has a background in musical devices and their applications. One never gets the feel of being talked down to however, in fact to me the best part is just how friendly and inviting everyone is in this show; one feels like these folks would be perfect to just hang out and have a ginger beer with, discussing one of the Elite Composers of the past century.
I hated having to pause it and go get mad at my first violins...I wanted to listen all in one swoop! And yeah, I listened in between rehearsals with the orchestra today.
By far my favorite podcast on the internet, another triumph for hardcore (and becoming hardcore) fans, terrific job guys!
I'm also really interested in watching the show again (perhaps grab a dv set). It's been over 35 years for me.
I have to add: considering the influence Bernard had on more than a little of the PM scores (vibraphone anyone? Herrmann's favorite), bringing him up didn't seem gratuitous in the least.
Thanks, Yavar, I see I worded this quite awkwardly (which is nothing new). I did mean the episode evaluation (given with the score value combined) I wish to vote yes to. I actually will go even further. Even though there is a value in seeing all episodes of a series to evaluate one in context, I don't see that as a prerequisite. I feel you don't need to have seen the two previous MALTESE FALCONs to evaluate the third. You don't NEED to see all James Bond films to evaluate GOLDFINGER. And, since I started seeing many, many TV series mid-season or later, being thrown in it's world at any place is totally legit. Which mean evaluating them independently can have it's own value. Just MHO.
Thanks for the clarification! I'm glad I have someone who agrees with me -- so far you're the first, with Zardoz here not wanting us to EVER do the Goldsmith Ratio, and someone else chiming in via mailbag email that they agree with my two cohosts about not doing it for TV episodes.
But, "Wait!" I say, "What about for a show when Jerry scored the pilot and a few early episodes thereafter, such as Dr. Kildare? Surely then we have enough context to judge?" I don't know if I'll be able to make that case, but the good news for you and I, Henry, is that I did successfully talk my cohosts into treating the Playhouse 90s we managed to lay our hands on as "TV movies" -- yes it's technically an anthology TV series but it's a series with full feature-length (the "90" refers to them being 90 minutes, albeit with commercials) plays presented. Since we have decided not to try tackling multiple Playhouse 90s in a single podcast, this means the Goldsmith Ratio will be back for these rare TV exceptions...
I hope this Goldsmith ratio will not be a component in every podcast - stating (in every show) that Goldsmith's music is better than the onscreen content could get monotonous and feel very 'old' rather quickly. How frequently does one encounter a Goldsmith-scored motion picture which is 'better' than the music that Goldsmith write for it? Probably Seven Days in May is the likeliest contender in this area ... what do you think?
Zardoz, as you probably have since realized, it sounds as if the Goldsmith Ratio will indeed not be a component of every podcast, as my cohosts outvoted me in terms of not wanting to rate single TV episodes Goldsmith scored. But to answer your question, it's ironic -- because if we HAD given rating to the Perry Mason episodes, we would (I am certain) have had our very first Goldsmith ratio <1, with the episode "The Case of Paul Drake's Dilemma" -- our rating for the (perfectly fine but mostly just functional) episode score ended up averaging to only 5.7/10 whereas if we'd rated the episode, from our enthusiastic commentary I would guess something around a 9/10. To be fair, Goldsmith's score was at a disadvantage because of a repeating piece of source music dominating the episode. Personally I really like what Goldsmith wrote for Seven Days in May, though it is his most sparse feature score and therefore perhaps more difficult to rate meaningfully...guess we'll cross that bridge when we come to it!
For us, the interesting part of the Goldsmith Ratio is not finding out almost every time that Goldsmith's music is better than the program/film he accompanied -- it's calculating *how much* better it is. So far we haven't gone above a 1.6, or Goldsmith's music being roughly one an a half times better than what he scored. But later on things should get a bit more exciting with higher and higher numbers.
I'm curious, Yavar, why the team decided to review Perry Mason on its own rather than do reviews on all the selections from the Prometheus CD? Instead of evaluating the album listening experience, your collective focus seems to be on individual TV series and not the album.
It's rather a "grab bag" sort of album, isn't it? Personally for my iTunes library I split it up into respective shows and even got individual cover art for each from my friend Brad Wills of this board. To me it is completely arbitrary to treat these many different unrelated things (even the two Playhouse 90 scores have nothing to do with each other) as some special "album listening experience" just because they fill out disc space together. It's a bit like asking us, "Why did you cover Seconds without also examining I.Q.?" because LLL released them both on an album together.
But the answer to your question is not actually related to my personal taste or preferences, but to the mission of our show itself. We are not an "album review show" -- if we were, we would not have produced our Episodes 0, 1, or 3, as no albums have ever been produced for Black Patch, Face of a Fugitive, or Jerry's early radio and TV work (with the sole exception of "The Thunder of Imperial Names" section of the CBS Radio Workshop episode, "1489 Words"). We are, as we clearly state, "A chronological journey through the filmography of composer Jerry Goldsmith." http://goldsmithodyssey.buzzsprout.com/159614
Filmography, not discography -- which to me actually produces a tiny bit of frustration because as of now it looks like we might have to skip coverage of The Lineup, The Going Up of David Lev, and (of course) the unaired pilot Nick Quarry...even though these are three things that have been released...on album! My cohosts do not want to cover any music of Jerry's for which we are lacking the film context. I on the other hand want to be as complete as possible, and discuss the music we have even if we lack context and can't speak about it except on a purely musical level (vaguely knowing the plot of the program isn't really the same as seeing what the music accompanies). So unlike film ratings and the Goldsmith Ratio, this would seem to be an area where you and I are likely to agree, with my cohosts still winning a majority vote against me.
Yavar
P.S. The CBS library music Jerry wrote (included on the Prometheus "Early Years" CD), or his few concert hall compositions, will not be eliminated from our coverage because we are not lacking any context. And my cohosts do hope to come back to David Lev/The Lineup/etc. some day if we can ever locate a video copy of them.
Yavar, I like the podcast on Face of a Fugitive. The Railroad/train motif was my favorite. It is interesting to hear his early beginnings. That one long action cue you play certainly shows the genesis or the early beginnings of his action writing style (with thematic building blocks as you noted) that later becomes fully developed and more sophisticated in cues like “Through The Trees” in Lonely Are The Brave.
Yes, I would agree that Jerry's fully matured action style might not quite be present here, though I think he was constantly developing his action style over the course of his career...and I still wouldn't mistake the action music in Face of a Fugitive for that written by any other composer.
I could hear this motifs and themes in your podcast. He already seems to be taking big strides in this western and in The Black Patch. Within a short time after this western, I thought he really became an expert at MEMORABLE, more extended themes in his westerns like Rio Conchos, Lonely Are The Brave, Stagecoach, and other future westerns.
I guess I've gotta respectfully disagree with you on this one, Joan -- I agree the themes in Face of a Fugitive are not *quite* as memorable (though I really do adore Danny's Theme), but for me the main theme in Black Patch, particularly as developed in the early romantic sequence -- is an incredibly powerful and memorable gorgeous long-lined theme (about 30 notes in all for the full melody, if I'm counting right):
A-list, top-drawer Goldsmith theme to me at least! This, plus his radio work for 1489 Words, is enough to convince me that he was already a master by 1957. Such a shame it's never been made available in any fashion outside of the film.
Yavar
P.S. to WagnerAlmighty -- thanks as always for your glowing (yet still thoughtful) feedback! I'm so glad you got your copy of The Early Years in time. Despite never being commercially released, we managed to get rare video copies of A Marriage of Strangers and Tomorrow, the two Goldsmith-scored Playhouse 90s from that album, and have actually decided to do them as separate podcasts, because it turns out that unlike The Case of the Blushing Pearls, they are not presented in complete form on that disc (instead of the 8 minutes on Early Years, A Marriage of Strangers was Jerry's longest score to date that we know of, at over 35 minutes for a 75 minute dramatic presentation!) This means that we will soon be premiering some substantial Goldsmith cues of real rarity on our podcast.
Goldsmith is my second favorite composer (behind Williams) and so far, I have only listened to the first episode (episode 0). I enjoyed it very much and I will definitely check out all the other episodes. You guys provide interesting background info and the analysis you provide was a joy to listen to. Keep up the great job!
Yavar, I do agree that the themes in Black Patch are more memorable than in Face Of A Fugitive. Both have decent themes.
I have a question. Are the 3 of you together in the same room making these podcasts? Or are you skyping (sp?) in some way? Just curious. Sounds like you are all 3 together because everything flows together so smoothly.
Yavar, I do agree that the themes in Black Patch are more memorable than in Face Of A Fugitive. Both have decent themes.
I have a question. Are the 3 of you together in the same room making these podcasts? Or are you skyping (sp?) in some way? Just curious. Sounds like you are all 3 together because everything flows together so smoothly.
Really appreciate these podcasts.
Yeah, I wondered that, too, but I'm sure they are all separate.
I'm grateful for all that's gone into these shows, because it's about a subject I love and want to know more about. I've already learned plenty, and my appreciation for JG grows bigger and bigger.
Goldsmith is my second favorite composer (behind Williams) and so far, I have only listened to the first episode (episode 0). I enjoyed it very much and I will definitely check out all the other episodes. You guys provide interesting background info and the analysis you provide was a joy to listen to. Keep up the great job!
Thanks, spanosdm! If you enjoyed Episode 0 that much you will definitely enjoy the others even more, as we introduce more and more music into the episodes. So far I think we just kept improving up through Face of a Fugitive (not that I think our Perry Mason ep is much of a step down) and I'll be extremely happy if we can keep the quality of the show around that level, going forward..
Yavar, I do agree that the themes in Black Patch are more memorable than in Face Of A Fugitive. Both have decent themes. I have a question. Are the 3 of you together in the same room making these podcasts? Or are you skyping (sp?) in some way? Just curious. Sounds like you are all 3 together because everything flows together so smoothly.
We are indeed using Skype. Jens and Clark both currently live in Georgia and can see each other from time to time (by sheer coincidence I lived there for part of my childhood). I on the other hand live in Santa Fe, NM -- two timezones away -- which makes scheduling our recordings a little tricky sometimes. But we've been making it work! As for your comments about our conversation flowing together so smoothly, thank you! A lot of that happens naturally (an outline and a little planning ahead helps) but Jens also deserves a degree of credit for clean up and editing things so well from the raw Audacity audio.
Thanks, Yavar. Wow, I was in Santa Fe for the first time last summer with some girlfriends. I LOVED that town. I'm dragging my husband back there some day.
Thanks, Yavar. Wow, I was in Santa Fe for the first time last summer with some girlfriends. I LOVED that town. I'm dragging my husband back there some day.
DAMN! I would have loved to meet you in person if I'd known. Maybe we could've even gone to the Santa Fe Opera together (as an employee I get discounted tickets). Good luck on convincing your husband and do get in touch if you're in the neighborhood again soon. It is indeed a beautiful place.
Despite never being commercially released, we managed to get rare video copies of A Marriage of Strangers and Tomorrow, the two Goldsmith-scored Playhouse 90s from that album, and have actually decided to do them as separate podcasts, because it turns out that unlike The Case of the Blushing Pearls, they are not presented in complete form on that disc (instead of the 8 minutes on Early Years, A Marriage of Strangers was Jerry's longest score to date that we know of, at over 35 minutes for a 75 minute dramatic presentation!) This means that we will soon be premiering some substantial Goldsmith cues of real rarity on our podcast.
That's really interesting, Yavar, and coincidental too. It will probably set me off on some off-topic rant, but this is real life, folks, I think. Anyway, I'm slowly working my way through my "bought-years-ago-never-seen" DVDs of "The Twilight Zone", and I'm particularly struck with how good the much-maligned Season 4 episodes are. Most people didn't feel the format worked when stretched to 50 minutes, but of the episodes I've seen, about 90% of them are excellent. At "The Twilight Zone Café" site, everyone talks about how awful the episode "Mute" is. I thought it was brilliant. So last night it was the turn of "Death Ship". Again an absolute corker of a show (Jack Klugman, Ross Martin and Frederick somebody on a spaceship). There's one stand-out scene (in fact there are about twenty) where Ross Martin has a "vision" of being reunited with his dead wife and daughter. Ross Martin's acting is wonderful here, and the music really made me sit up and pay attention. Heartbreaking, and somewhat unlike anything typically "Twilight Zone-ish". So I consulted the list of musical cues at the Twilight Zone Café site, and it mentions that particular piece as coming from "Playhouse 90: A Marriage of Strangers". And so I went to my copy of "Jerry Goldsmith: The Early Years" because I knew that some episodes were represented on it but I couldn't remember the titles. What? "Marriage of Strangers" is the first two tracks! And so I played them, but the piece used in the TZ episode wasn't either of them. So now I see that the score for that episode was over 35 minutes long...
Which brings me around clumsily to a more technical question which you may or may not have the answer to, but it's worth a try. If two tracks existed from "A Marriage of Strangers" and turned up on the (superb) "Early Years" CD, has the rest of the score survived? That's the even more geeky side of me talking, the side that's asking about the possibilty of a CD release.
While I'm here and have already given birth to a lengthy rabbit, I may as well continue instead of torturing you with more streamofconsciousness bunny posts. I have been remiss and so far only listened to the Episode 0 podcast. I will try to do better, but I'm always getting distracted.
I wonder if you'll have any luck with "Nick Quarry". That's really cool music on the great FSM "Stripper" release. But as you know it's not even a pilot show, just a 15-minute teaser specifically shot for a pilot that didn't even make it that far. Probably one of the most intriguingly obscure titles in the whole of JG's output.
I think I'll cut the rabbit now. Rabbit stew for lunch. I can't guarantee though that it won't make a return.
I guess the people who could answer your question Graham are Luc Van De Ven or maybe Ford Thaxton. When I saw it said The Early Years Vol 1 (upon release) I just assumed (like many others, I guess) that Vol 2 would roll along soon after. With Goldsmith's name on it and the rarity of the scores, you would think it shifted enough numbers to encourage further volumes. It is a strange one, to be sure. And with that, you are none the wiser!
I guess the people who could answer your question Graham are Luc Van De Ven or maybe Ford Thaxton. When I saw it said The Early Years Vol 1 (upon release) I just assumed (like many others, I guess) that Vol 2 would roll along soon after. With Goldsmith's name on it and the rarity of the scores, you would think it shifted enough numbers to encourage further volumes. It is a strange one, to be sure. And with that, you are none the wiser!
Cheers Kev. You're probably right about going directly to the Van de Ven or to the Thax, but I was honestly more interested in if all of the score survived, after knowing that there was more to it than the two tracks on "The Early Years". I know I made it sound like I was pleading for a CD release, but that was just the rabbit talking. If the whole score does survive, plus other "Early Years" gems, and it appears on a "Volume 2" CD, well it'll be another thing I'll have to get, and I think I might have enough.
On the other hand, bring it on. Having said that, I still haven't received my THRILLER 2 or my RAMBO 3... or my INVASION OF THE BODY SNATCHERS (Denny Frickin' Zeitlin genius). And I haven't played all of "JG: The Early Years" for absolute ages. And I've got all those unseen Twilght Zones to watch.
Sorry, that rabbit stole some of Yavar's thunder. Don't blame me.
Which brings me around clumsily to a more technical question which you may or may not have the answer to, but it's worth a try. If two tracks existed from "A Marriage of Strangers" and turned up on the (superb) "Early Years" CD, has the rest of the score survived? That's the even more geeky side of me talking, the side that's asking about the possibilty of a CD release.
That is indeed a veeeery interesting question, and you yourself have introduced a good amount of hope into the answer. You see...in one way none of the score survived, because this was done in the final season of Playhouse 90 where it was still performed live (the episode only still exists because of kinescopes -- a film camera pointed at a TV set of the live broadcast, basically, used for re-broadcast in different timezones). The score was also performed live while the actors were acting out the play live on set!
The only reason there was any music "in the clear" to release on the Prometheus Early Years CD is given by producer Ford Thaxton in the original announcement thread (you may recall this because you participated in it): http://www.filmscoremonthly.com/board/posts.cfm?forumID=1&pageID=2&threadID=46843&archive=0 Schiffy asked: "I have one question: If the first of the "Playhouse 90" scores presented here was performed live, what is the source of this recording? I can't imagine they were recording the live performance of the music on a separate track back then. I'm guessing it was performed again around the same time for use as library music. But what do I know?" And Ford answered: "It was recorded in Europe the summer after the show aired by the CBS Music Director for their Production music Library. It also allowed him to have a great Holiday in Europe at on CBS's tab... Not a bad deal."
Now my initial reaction (when I realized what a small fraction of the score was on the Prometheus disc) was to worry that perhaps these were the only cues that had been re-recorded. But hearing from you that the TZ tracking from Marriage of Strangers did not include any of the music released by Prometheus gives me new hope that more of the score's summer re-recording survives and might get released some day. There are a ton of very interesting cues left off, including a lot of more tense and uneasy material which would likely fit well in some TZ episodes! This makes it seem very likely that more of the score was re-recorded that summer than was Prometheus chose to include on the disc (in contrast they released the complete Perry Mason score, and I suspect the score from The Lineup is also complete...I'm interested to check Playhouse 90: Tomorrow now, as this was an episode from their first filmed season and the 12 minutes might conceivably be the complete score for that, I guess...but we'll see!)
If Ford is feeling generous maybe he'll answer to further inquiries.
More later on this, but the re-recorded cues also differ greatly from the film versions, often in tempo but also sometimes in instrumentation and even occasionally veering into full alternate territory (but this may be because of improvised changes on the fly during the live play performance; and the Prometheus re-recording release might best reflect Jerry's written intentions). We'll cover a bit of this in the show with some briefer comparisons, but just as an example, the first track of the Prometheus, A New Home, corresponds exactly to every musical passage in the film version...which is five and a half minutes long compared to only four minutes to the Prometheus. I listened through both cues with a fine-toothed ear comb, so to speak, and that extra minute and a half is added only because the tempo is so much slower (without punches and streamers, Jerry must have been trying to synch his conducting to various landmark movements by the actors in real time -- crazy!) And yet for other cues the tempo is faster in the film version compared with the Prometheus, or different instruments are emphasized or played differently...it's really fascinating!
While I'm here and have already given birth to a lengthy rabbit, I may as well continue instead of torturing you with more streamofconsciousness bunny posts. I have been remiss and so far only listened to the Episode 0 podcast. I will try to do better, but I'm always getting distracted.
Oh, you are going to LOVE the ones on the westerns! I can't wait to hear your reactions...
I wonder if you'll have any luck with "Nick Quarry". That's really cool music on the great FSM "Stripper" release. But as you know it's not even a pilot show, just a 15-minute teaser specifically shot for a pilot that didn't even make it that far. Probably one of the most intriguingly obscure titles in the whole of JG's output.
Right...it was sort of a pilot for a pilot. I kinda doubt we'll get our hands on it, but who knows...
