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 Posted:   Jan 9, 2020 - 2:52 PM   
 By:   General Kael   (Member)

It is not the onus of sane people to disprove every bit of shit that some idiot craps out.

Justin, this had me laughing out loud, and really hit the spot for me with some frustrations at work today. Thank you, thank you.

 
 
 Posted:   Jan 9, 2020 - 2:55 PM   
 By:   KeV McG   (Member)

I thought the BLACK PANTHER score was terribly racist and complained to my local MP about it.

 
 Posted:   Jan 9, 2020 - 3:05 PM   
 By:   T.J. Turner   (Member)

When I first saw this thread, I think there was just one response to it.
I was going to reply myself, but then changed my mind as it was clear that Jeffery C. J. Chen is just trolling for attention. If ignored he'd have no fuel to keep his fire going. But to my surprise with in 12 hours this thread has reached to 2 pages of replies! Sadly to say Mr. Chen as well at Jorge Arenas who is presenting this as NEWS, has got you all exactly where they want you. Trolled!

Earlier someone made a comment about Chris Rock's joke about white out (wite-out), and then the meme posted about the woman having a heart attack These jokes make the reality clear. Some people just see what they want to see.

 
 Posted:   Jan 9, 2020 - 3:07 PM   
 By:   Spinmeister   (Member)

But there's proof!

 
 
 Posted:   Jan 9, 2020 - 3:08 PM   
 By:   joan hue   (Member)

The use of the suffix "tard" by some contributors on this thread is rather disheartening but, frankly, not surprising.

Yep, I agree, and I usually agree with KeoNato. And......I'm a boomer. We are not all entrenched.smile

And I love Williams' music.

 
 Posted:   Jan 9, 2020 - 3:17 PM   
 By:   judy the hutt   (Member)

It is not the onus of sane people to disprove every bit of shit that some idiot craps out.

Justin, this had me laughing out loud, and really hit the spot for me with some frustrations at work today. Thank you, thank you.


love it

 
 
 Posted:   Jan 9, 2020 - 3:29 PM   
 By:   Joe 1956   (Member)

We are not all entrenched.smile

Thank God we're not all Enlightened either.

 
 
 Posted:   Jan 9, 2020 - 3:34 PM   
 By:   Joe 1956   (Member)

....and then the meme posted about the woman having a heart attack....

Trolled? By a bedwetter? I'm not angry, on the contrary, this thread has been great fun ever since the Educated ones came crawling.

As far as the meme, people can yawn all they want, but it's gonna be even more pertinent to the Enlightened know-it-alls once they themselves reach my age.

"as ye sow, ye are like to reap"....

 
 
 Posted:   Jan 9, 2020 - 3:42 PM   
 By:   KeoNato   (Member)

The use of the suffix "tard" by some contributors on this thread is rather disheartening but, frankly, not surprising.

Yep, I agree, and I usually agree with KeoNato. And......I'm a boomer. We are not all entrenched.smile

And I love Williams' music.


I’ll never hold your age against you, Joan. You’ve never held mine against me. wink

And for the record — I think the article that started this whole dumpster fire is bullshit. And I’m what half of the people on here would consider a SJW.

 
 
 Posted:   Jan 9, 2020 - 3:48 PM   
 By:   William R.   (Member)



And for the record — I think the article that started this whole dumpster fire is bullshit. And I’m what half of the people on here would consider a SJW.


Same here.

And when people start ranting about "Orientals," it might be a good idea to lock this sucker up.

 
 Posted:   Jan 9, 2020 - 3:48 PM   
 By:   Penelope Pineapple   (Member)

I'm curious how many people here actually bothered to read Mr Chen's article vice the article posted by the OP. The comments tell me "not many." The posted link/article is a grotesque mischaracterization of Mr Chen's piece and it even concludes with a YouTube link to a video with the hyperbolic title "Racist John Williams." You'd think they were almost trying to agitate the trolls.

You don't need to agree with Mr Chen's views, but his original article is a lot more thoughtful and nuanced than what the linked article suggests. In fact, Mr Chen compliments John Williams in his article several times! But you wouldn't know this unless you bothered to read it. He even says "The solution is certainly not to blame [John Williams], but to be more aware of the way music, especially music written for popular media, can shape our understanding of the world." That's it ... hardly a strident view.

Instead of reading a clickbait article, read what the man actually said: https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2019/12/23/how-star-wars-reinforces-our-prejudices/

And full disclosure: As a 42-year-old straight white man, I found Mr Chen's argument compelling.

 
 Posted:   Jan 9, 2020 - 3:54 PM   
 By:   johnonymous86   (Member)

Cultures should be free to integrate elements from other cultures and adapt and improve them as they see fit. That's how cultures grow and evolve. Cultural appropriation is a nonsensical idea.

I'm sure that most Westerners prefer, for example, Westernized "Chinese" Food compared to the real thing. Much in the same way, I have to say I prefer Williams' take on Irish or Asian music to the "real" thing.



I don't think appropriation is integration. That's all fine and well and I think you're right that it's necessary for evolution.

What's funny is that many of the people who claim appropriation is ridiculous are the same people who are fervently opposed to any iteration of their accepted cultural norms. How is culture going to evolve if we're living in a bubble?



 
 
 Posted:   Jan 9, 2020 - 3:55 PM   
 By:   KeoNato   (Member)

I'm curious how many people here actually bothered to read Mr Chen's article vice the article posted by the OP. The comments tell me "not many." The posted link/article is a grotesque mischaracterization of Mr Chen's piece and it even concludes with a YouTube link to a video with the hyperbolic title "Racist John Williams." You'd think they were almost trying to agitate the trolls.

You don't need to agree with Mr Chen's views, but his original article is a lot more thoughtful and nuanced than what the linked article suggests. In fact, Mr Chen compliments John Williams in his article several times! But you wouldn't know this unless you bothered to read it. He even says "The solution is certainly not to blame [John Williams], but to be more aware of the way music, especially music written for popular media, can shape our understanding of the world." That's it ... hardly a strident view.

Instead of reading a clickbait article, read what the man actually said: https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2019/12/23/how-star-wars-reinforces-our-prejudices/

And full disclosure: As a 42-year-old straight white man, I found Mr Chen's argument compelling.


I think some of the points he makes are a bit of a stretch unfortunately. While the use of “Oriental” or otherwise non-Western instrumentation can strike some the wrong way, it may fail to consider that this is a Western musician with a classical Western style writing for (primarily) Western audiences.

I do think the author’s points about representation in film music and the value in a diversity of backgrounds is spot on though.

 
 Posted:   Jan 9, 2020 - 4:01 PM   
 By:   johnonymous86   (Member)

Yeah he refers to Williams as brilliant. I think his argument isn't trying demonize, merely trying to open a dialogue...but I also agree that a lot of what he says is pretentious bullshit.

 
 Posted:   Jan 9, 2020 - 4:21 PM   
 By:   Penelope Pineapple   (Member)

I think some of the points he makes are a bit of a stretch unfortunately. While the use of “Oriental” or otherwise non-Western instrumentation can strike some the wrong way, it may fail to consider that this is a Western musician with a classical Western style writing for (primarily) Western audiences.

I do think the author’s points about representation in film music and the value in a diversity of backgrounds is spot on though.


You make a good point that he's a Western musician writing for (primarily) Western audiences. (Or maybe at that time he certainly was.) That should be weighed when considering the argument. I read it a few times and nothing jumped out at me as a stretch, necessarily. (Though my biases may be blinding me so there's that.) And of course he's also writing the music for a film filtered through eyes of a Western filmmaker. You've given me another wrinkle to ponder! =)

But my initial takeaway from his argument is that the music for Star Wars, when viewed in context with the majority of scoring, simply reinforces the musical idea that "exotic" sounds are primarily used to identify "the other" or "villains." I found that hard to disagree with. A main argument I make to the uninitiated about film or television scores is that they're 50% of why we love a movie or television show. I truly believe that the composers are a major reason why we love the films we do ... the music is manipulating us. Sometimes it's obvious, many times it's subconscious. So, in that context, I found Mr Chen's argument to ring true. (And I also agree with his views on diversity and the value of representation.)

I definitely plan on reading the article several more times and will continue to think on it.

 
 
 Posted:   Jan 9, 2020 - 4:31 PM   
 By:   KeoNato   (Member)

I think some of the points he makes are a bit of a stretch unfortunately. While the use of “Oriental” or otherwise non-Western instrumentation can strike some the wrong way, it may fail to consider that this is a Western musician with a classical Western style writing for (primarily) Western audiences.

I do think the author’s points about representation in film music and the value in a diversity of backgrounds is spot on though.


You make a good point that he's a Western musician writing for (primarily) Western audiences. (Or maybe at that time he certainly was.) That should be weighed when considering the argument. I read it a few times and nothing jumped out at me as a stretch, necessarily. (Though my biases may be blinding me so there's that.) And of course he's also writing the music for a film filtered through eyes of a Western filmmaker. You've given me another wrinkle to ponder! =)

But my initial takeaway from his argument is that the music for Star Wars, when viewed in context with the majority of scoring, simply reinforces the musical idea that "exotic" sounds are primarily used to identify "the other" or "villains." I found that hard to disagree with. A main argument I make to the uninitiated about film or television scores is that they're 50% of why we love a movie or television show. I truly believe that the composers are a major reason why we love the films we do ... the music is manipulating us. Sometimes it's obvious, many times it's subconscious. So, in that context, I found Mr Chen's argument to ring true. (And I also agree with his views on diversity and the value of representation.)

I definitely plan on reading the article several more times and will continue to think on it.


I may have been a bit too harsh when I dismissed the article as bullshit earlier. I don’t agree with most of it but I think this topic would have been better served by linking directly to it, rather than some clickbaity summary of it.

 
 
 Posted:   Jan 9, 2020 - 4:33 PM   
 By:   OnyaBirri   (Member)

This is the greatest thread I've seen here in a long time.

I say the score is racist. Who is with me?

 
 Posted:   Jan 9, 2020 - 4:36 PM   
 By:   Penelope Pineapple   (Member)

I may have been a bit too harsh when I dismissed the article as bullshit earlier. I don’t agree with most of it but I think this topic would have been better served by linking directly to it, rather than some clickbaity summary of it.

Agreed 100%. The topic would have been better served with a link to the article itself. I think the discussion is a good one to have, though, regardless of one's views. I sure do miss polite conversation and debate these days lol.

 
 
 Posted:   Jan 9, 2020 - 4:42 PM   
 By:   KeoNato   (Member)

I sure do miss polite conversation and debate these days lol.

If you don’t like the same music as me, I’m going to call you names on a film score message board.

 
 Posted:   Jan 9, 2020 - 4:43 PM   
 By:   Penelope Pineapple   (Member)

I say the score is racist. Who is with me?

[Me: grabs pitchfork, joins mob]

Your comment made me laugh....

I actually don't think the score is racist. I don't disagree with the article outright; it makes some valid points and serves, I think, as more of a conversation-starter than anything. I've enjoyed John Williams' Star Wars scores my entire life. Ditto the movies, to varying degree. So I enjoyed being presented with another way to consider them.

Full Disclosure: I also prefer Jerry Goldsmith to John Williams. So, you know ... clearly I'm operating here with an agenda lol.

 
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