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Well, I can understand when aspects of it aren't particularly appealing to some big Goldsmith fans, like Joan in this very thread. I mean, to some fans like OnyaBirri it's among their very favorite Goldsmith scores, but even among the three of us on the podcast we rated it much lower than the western feature scores written on either side of it. If you're into modern concert hall music with a bit of jazz flavor, then it's right up your alley. If you like more obvious melodies and themes in your scores, it might not be someone's favorite.
But that's what's great about Goldsmith -- so much versatility and variety that there's something for everybody!
Yavar
Sure! I finally got a chance to listen to some Hour of the Gun on youtube, and was at first taken aback (in an interested way). The first track actually sounded a bit Poppy, and not in the classic, sweeping, How the West was Won seriously engaging way. In a bit of an anomalous way, at least to my ears. I really need to see the movie.
Suffice to say, at track three I was going crazy over that score. The Tadlow awaits...
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I have to come right out and say it: I am totally PSYCHED for future installments of Odyssey, especially as my knowledge of JG's music grows. You have a TON of amazing music coming up soon, and good times with some folks whom sound like they'd be great to crack a beer or two with 
There's a certain warmth to the program that makes it extremely engaging to listen to, among the other aspects I mentioned earlier.
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Maybe, if I liked beer. Perhaps some hard apple cider...
Honestly, a lot of people overlook early Goldsmith because of the B-list status of the films (before Lonely Are the Brave in 1962, that is) and obscurity of some of the TV projects, combined with the music often being unavailable on its own due to lack of elements. But compositionally Goldsmith was at a very high level (with a distinctive style) very, very early on, and there are tons of "hidden gems" during this period.
Sure! I finally got a chance to listen to some Hour of the Gun on youtube, and was at first taken aback (in an interested way). The first track actually sounded a bit Poppy, and not in the classic, sweeping, How the West was Won seriously engaging way. In a bit of an anomalous way, at least to my ears. I really need to see the movie.
Suffice to say, at track three I was going crazy over that score. The Tadlow awaits...
This cracks me up, a bit. I think I explained this to you but that was quite a few months ago: If you see the movie you won't hear the "anomalous" music you're referring to, because it was a "pop" orchestral arrangement made specifically for the unique album recording, I suspect to make it a more commercial prospect despite how dark and low-key the bulk of the score is. As far as I know this pop arrangement was never part of the film sessions (which are of course unfortunately lost) and certainly isn't in the film itself, because it would be entirely inappropriate!
When James Fitzpatrick had Nic Raine restore the score from the original film sketches (orchestrated for a somewhat larger ensemble than the album recording), I presume that one piece was not among the materials though I'd be interested to get confirmation. I'm still glad he included it, to make his new recording truly complete and definitive. I rather enjoy the arrangement, on its own standalone merits.
Yavar
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When James Fitzpatrick had Nic Raine restore the score from the original film sketches (orchestrated for a somewhat larger ensemble than the album recording), I presume that one piece was not among the materials though I'd be interested to get confirmation. I'm still glad he included it, to make his new recording truly complete and definitive. I rather enjoy the arrangement, on its own standalone merits.
Yavar
Ohhh...and in regard to the Raine/James HotG, well heck it's hard to pass up the suite it's sharing time with. Red Pony is a grand love of mine, and it would be incredible to hear it in a modern idiom.
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I can't drink myself (recovering alcoholic) but you probably get my...uhh, spirit.
Get it? Spirit? Spirits? BWAAA!
(sorry I can pass on beer but never corn!)
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Yavar - will you be posting images on those 'official' albums that your podcasts will be reviewing in the future?
You mean, just in this thread? I think on our podcast page we don't have a lot of leeway with including multiple images, but I could be wrong. But in general I think we'll be including the best film poster in our image, rather than the soundtrack album...we will certainly be plugging the best releases of each score in our show, though, and often be providing a link at the bottom of our episode page, particularly if the album is in print. BTW, Zardoz -- are you the user formerly known as ToneRow? Just curious.
Yavar
Yes, I'm referring to posting the images of albums in this FSM thread.
And ... yes ... I was formerly ToneRow until that account got messed with a email/password change that didn't work out ...
so I created another account with a different user name.
Even if you don't deposit album covers, I'll probably do it myself here anyway. One way or another, images assist the readers/listeners regarding product searches and/or score appreciations.
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Plenty of thoughts are crowding my mind regarding feedback on your podcast on City of Fear - too many to type here in one posting, so I'll be replying to this thread at various later times on different aspects.
First, though, allow me to say as someone who already owns the DVD of City of Fear and the Intrada CD that your podcast did not add much information to what can already be gleaned from these discs.
The Jerry Goldsmith entry within Halliwell's Filmgoer's Companion, for example, italicizes City of Fear to indicate the title for which Goldsmith yielded his most outstanding musical contribution (according to Halliwell, that is ).
Yet this type of information was not communicated in this podcast.
I also think that the studio recording session dates on each of Goldsmith's works help place his chronology into context more so than the release dates or transmission dates.
When Goldsmith started out during the end of the studio system, it was not uncommon for 6 months to elapse between the recordings of the scores and the distribution of the movies in theaters [consider Lonely are the Brave or The Spiral Road as but just 2 illustrations of this]
These recording dates also can aid in considering facets of Goldsmith's personal life, such as birth of a child, a divorce, death of a parent, end of a contract, & so on.
To wit:
February 1929: Goldsmith is born
November 1957: Joel Goldsmith is born
August 1958: City of Fear recorded [Goldsmith is 29.5 years old, Joel is still less than 12 months old, and there was a musicians' union strike in '58 which may have permitted Goldsmith to freelance for Columbia since this strike implies that he was not earning wages via his CBS contract.]
February 1959: City of Fear premieres (6 months after the recording) during the same month in which Goldsmith attained his Big 3-0.
May 2011: Intrada issues City of Fear on CD
The podcasts might include this sort of information instead of creating Goldsmith ratios or discussing movie script flaws. Let's face it - just about every film Goldsmith provided music for is not a 4-star/5-star masterpiece. Rather than talk about flaws in characters or continuity or rationale, focus more on the music's harmonic vocabularies and the recording master tapes and the soundtrack albums ... IMHO.
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Yes, I'm referring to posting the images of albums in this FSM thread.
And ... yes ... I was formerly ToneRow until that account got messed with a email/password change that didn't work out ...
so I created another account with a different user name.
Got it! Well I've always enjoyed your posts, so I'm glad to realize you're still here.
Even if you don't deposit album covers, I'll probably do it myself here anyway. One way or another, images assist the readers/listeners regarding product searches and/or score appreciations.
Actually that would be a great help and a worthy addition to this thread, thanks. I've already got my hands so full juggling aspects of working on this show -- you have no idea.
Plenty of thoughts are crowding my mind regarding feedback on your podcast on City of Fear - too many to type here in one posting, so I'll be replying to this thread at various later times on different aspects.
Looking forward to it!
First, though, allow me to say as someone who already owns the DVD of City of Fear and the Intrada CD that your podcast did not add much information to what can already be gleaned from these discs.
I think it may simply be that our primary intended audience for this podcast series is people who are a little less informed than you. As you are one of the most knowledgeable posters active on this board, I'm not surprised that we didn't add much to your own knowledge here. Our aim is more to widen the exposure and appreciation for Jerry's works, not as much to deepen it for those few of us who are already experts.
The Jerry Goldsmith entry within Halliwell's Filmgoer's Companion, for example, italicizes City of Fear to indicate the title for which Goldsmith yielded his most outstanding musical contribution (according to Halliwell, that is ).
Yet this type of information was not communicated in this podcast.
There are two reasons for this: first, I don't think any of us owns Halliwell's Filmgoer's Companion and would be in a position to notice that interesting detail. Second and most importantly, it's not really our intention to share any other opinions in this podcast besides our own (and potentially, that of a guest participant on occasion). We're out to take our own personal Odyssey through Jerry's music, giving our own honest assessments of his music and the films he scored, as uncolored by "general accepted wisdom" or "critical consensus" as possible.
I also think that the studio recording session dates on each of Goldsmith's works help place his chronology into context more so than the release dates or transmission dates.
When Goldsmith started out during the end of the studio system, it was not uncommon for 6 months to elapse between the recordings of the scores and the distribution of the movies in theaters [consider Lonely are the Brave or The Spiral Road as but just 2 illustrations of this]
I'm actually pretty sympathetic to your point of view on this, and I did point out to my cohosts that Jerry actually wrote and recorded his score in 1958, but they both prefer to go by release date, probably in order to replicate what it would be like discovering Jerry's music as listeners at the time. I know this may occasionally produce minor discrepancies in terms of composition order (perhaps Warlock was the longest delay?) but I don't think it'll be a huge difference in indicating how his music developed, in the grand scheme of things.
In regards to personal details such as the birth of his son or his later divorce -- this is interesting to us as Goldsmith obsessives, certainly, and good fodder for liner notes. But it really isn't the focus of our show (which is the works themselves), and we all feel bringing it up would be something of a distraction. I mean, it's interesting to know that Jerry's divorce may have influenced his writing of Music for Orchestra, but we just want to focus on the music, itself, on its own merits without biographical details (and that one in particular might add an unnecessary sour note).
The podcasts might include this sort of information instead of creating Goldsmith ratios or discussing movie script flaws. Let's face it - just about every film Goldsmith provided music for is not a 4-star/5-star masterpiece. Rather than talk about flaws in characters or continuity or rationale, focus more on the music's harmonic vocabularies and the recording master tapes and the soundtrack albums ... IMHO.
Yeah, I think it may just come down to you looking for a differently-focused Goldsmith podcast than the one we set out to create. We aren't out to do a liner notes show, though we do want to cover every key cue and theme in each score. We do discuss a score's availability at the end and will always recommend the best release(s) of said score. And we sometimes make comments about the recording/mixing quality and such, but they're not the primary focus. And while I originally conceived my own solo Goldsmith podcast years ago as focusing primarily on the music, my cohosts initially actually wanted to focus more on the films -- to actively test the idea that they tended to be bad, among other things. (Some of them ARE masterpieces, like Lonely Are the Brave or Seconds.) We found a good compromise in the middle which I actually think has worked out for the best, in regards to the show. The "Goldsmith ratio" has actually been one feature we've received some of the most enthusiastic feedback about, so I'm afraid you're in the minority there.
I personally do find Goldsmith's harmonic vocabulary unique, distinctive, and interesting, but getting too technical on a musical level is also something we specifically wanted to avoid, in order to make this as broadly accessible as possible to those many film music fans who may not be as musically literate as yourself. (I may occasionally do my own side explorations of the music in greater detail, if I have the time/inclination for specific scores...but even I'm not an expert.)
Yavar
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I personally do find Goldsmith's harmonic vocabulary unique, distinctive, and interesting, but getting too technical on a musical level is also something we specifically wanted to avoid, in order to make this as broadly accessible as possible to those many film music fans who may not be as musically literate as yourself. (I may occasionally do my own side explorations of the music in greater detail, if I have the time/inclination for specific scores...but even I'm not an expert.)
Yavar
It's definitely terrific for even relative JG novices go like myself, really accessible.
I think you guys show plenty enough musical understanding to make the show on that level as well. Too heavy analytics would, as you probably guessed, unnecessarily weigh it down.
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Thanks, Rick and WagnerAlmighty! Zardoz/ToneRow, I hope I didn't discourage you from sharing more of your thoughts -- even if I/we may disagree, we value all feedback (and much we do indeed take to heart).
Also bumping this thread to announce our latest episode is now up, for the most prominent and still-remembered project of Jerry's career to date: the beloved Raymond Burr TV adaptation of Erle Stanley Gardner's Perry Mason mysteries. We briefly discuss Fred Steiner's iconic theme to the series, and then move on to the two excellent Goldsmith-scored episodes!
http://goldsmithodyssey.buzzsprout.com/159614/685496-episode-4-perry-mason-1959
"The Case of the Blushing Pearls" in particular (released in complete form on the fine Prometheus album, "Jerry Goldsmith: The Early Years Vol. 1") features a gorgeous theme from Goldsmith's top drawer, and is Clark's favorite score we have covered to date! But we also cover the unreleased "The Case of Paul Drake's Dilemma" -- an even better episode with a solo trumpet-heavy score both reminiscent of City of Fear (composed and recorded the previous year) and foreshadowing of Chinatown.
Check it out, and as always, let us know what you think!
Yavar
EDIT: Thanks (Member)! You just barely beat me to it, again. In addition to the tracklisting of Blushing Pearls from Prometheus's complete score release, I will also hopefully soon have a complete score breakdown to share with all of you for Jerry's other episode score.
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Thanks so much, Joan! Have you had a chance to listen to our Face of a Fugitive podcast yet? That's still the one I'm proudest of, so far...and I think it would have some of your favorite Jerry music out of what we've covered up till now.
Yavar
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Once again, thanks for the feedback Henry! It seems I was the only one who found the "commercial break" music detracting from the listening experience on album. I agree with you that sometimes there are similar stinger cues for dramatic revelations in films, but in Perry Mason they just came a little too "fast and furious" for me, taking up a greater percentage of the short 15 minute score than I would have liked from a pure listening experience perspective. I was actually surprised that this didn't bother Clark at all, and especially surprised that Blushing Pearls ended up as his favorite Goldsmith listening experience thus far in our Odyssey. This is ironic because initially he wasn't really in favor of us tackling Jerry's TV episode scores (just TV movies and miniseries, and perhaps an exception for the most famous stuff like Twilight Zone)...and then the first one we cover ends up being his favorite thing so far! I should've given him a little ribbing about that on the podcast. Ah well.
Could I ask for a little clarification of the vote you expressed in your final sentence? Jens, Clark, and I have no disagreement about giving scores to Goldsmith's music for TV episodes, so there's nothing to really vote about there. Where I am in the minority is wanting to give ratings to the episodes as well (and therefore also Goldsmith ratios for them).
This is less important to me for Perry Mason, where I kind of understand their point of view not wanting to give ratings without understanding the greater context of the series. (I still think it would have been interesting to do, however, because I believe we would have ended up with our first ever Goldsmith Ratio number less than 1, with us generally being more impressed by the excellent episode Paul Drake's Dilemma than the perfectly-fine score Goldsmith composed for it. We basically did rate the episodes in our discussion; we simply didn't assign them an actual number.)
Where I think it is more important to rate individual episodes is for stand-alone shows like The Twilight Zone, where there is no greater context necessary to understand. To me those are short films under an umbrella title. I think the only valid argument I've heard against rating stuff like TZ or Thriller is the matter of time required to give all these individual episodes ratings and Goldsmith ratios, when we'll already be rating the scores individually. I think they clearly deserve it, but it just may not be practical to do it in the context of the show.
Yavar
P.S. to Joan -- no worries; I just look forward to hearing what you think of our Episode 3 when you get a chance. As another old board friend of mine, your opinion means a lot.
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The "Goldsmith ratio" has actually been one feature we've received some of the most enthusiastic feedback about, so I'm afraid you're in the minority there.
Ah ... well, so be it.
I hope this Goldsmith ratio will not be a component in every podcast - stating (in every show) that Goldsmith's music is better than the onscreen content could get monotonous and feel very 'old' rather quickly.
How frequently does one encounter a Goldsmith-scored motion picture which is 'better' than the music that Goldsmith write for it?
Probably Seven Days in May is the likeliest contender in this area ... what do you think?
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Jerry Goldsmith: The Early Years, Volume 1
TRACKS 3-12: "Perry Mason: The Case Of The Blushing Pearls" (TV Series, 1957)
3. The Pearls / Caught In The Act (01:11)
4. Inquest / Poolside / Jewelry Store (01:18)
5. New Client (02:57)
6. Dead Man (01:51)
7. Missing Page / Private Eye / Gentle Warning (02:00)
8. Another Gentle Warning / The Arrest (00:57)
9. Confession / New Testimony (01:26)
10. Fake Pearls / Fire (01:53)
11. Guilty Party (00:35)
12. Tea House (01:05)
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