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While I don't agree that "barking assholes" is an apt assessment of the two thus charged, I rather like the way it sounds. Let me use that in the future....
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Posted: |
Mar 27, 2010 - 7:20 PM
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By: |
Solium
(Member)
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My question is this. Are music execs , vocalists and bands making less money than they did 10 or 20 years ago or more? From my very unscientific sampling of the three people I know in your categories (one exec, two members of different bands), they are making much less. Then again, who isn't these days? Well I guess I should clarify. Are you talking about established people in the business or newbies/small time operations? The economy and the times are hard on everyone. No one makes what they used to 20 years ago. Specifically are rappers, execs say to mega record labels or James Horner making less money? If so fair enough then illegal downloading is legitimately hurting their profit margins. However it has also been noted, if the record labels dropped the price of their CD's to say $10 dollars (like the said they would years ago) each they would generate more sales. The point is I don't think illegal downloading is the only reason for a drop in the profit margin as noted. It could be pirating, lower wages, unemployment, execs taking more of the bands profits, etc.
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Posted: |
Mar 27, 2010 - 7:55 PM
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By: |
SchiffyM
(Member)
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The point is I don't think illegal downloading is the only reason for a drop in the profit margin as noted. It could be pirating, lower wages, unemployment, execs taking more of the bands profits, etc. All true. That said, piracy doesn't become okay just because it's merely one factor in many leading to the demise of the labels. (I don't think you were saying otherwise, but I think it's worth saying.) The examples I cited (not that I think it matters) were established for years. One, who is in a well-known band, told me recently he's astonished when fans tell him how much they love his music, but don't feel any shame in saying that they downloaded it free from piracy sites. This is his passion, and he's happy people enjoy his music, but it's also how he pays for his mortgage, and to send his kids to school! People justify piracy in many, many ways -- people who steal also buy, the labels priced their products too high, and on and on -- but none of it makes stealing okay. But I actually think the original point of this thread, before it became merely "a," was why brick-and-mortar stores were dying, wasn't it? It's pretty much impossible for stores to have the selection a huge warehouse (like Amazon) has, and for a polished store paying rent in a mall or a nice section of town to be able to underprice a website with the low overhead of a dingy warehouse in the middle of nowhere. That's just the nature of the beast, isn't it?
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Posted: |
Mar 27, 2010 - 8:15 PM
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By: |
antipodean
(Member)
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Question... is this study limited to Britain, or does it encompass the worldwide market? Because I know many people who haven't paid a dime for music in years. I'm not challenging anyone here (yet) - just curious. Talking about "haven't paid a dime"... how about people who borrow books, CDs and DVDs from libraries? I can (and have) sign up for a library card, borrow as many books, music and movies as my quota allows, enjoy them for free repeatedly, with the authors/publishers/labels getting a royalty once, when the library purchases that copy, and thereafter not getting a single cent from the repeated consumption of their works. Or if I lend a book, CD or DVD to a friend who reads/listens/watches it and returns it to me without having spent a cent on that title - have I acted criminally and deprived the author/publisher of a purchase? Libraries (and people lending friends stuff) have been around for a very long time, yet nobody makes a fuss about it. I do realize some libraries these days do pay royalties to authors on the basis of the loans of their books - and rightly so - but for a long time, there was no "loan royalties" system at all.) I would also add that this "free consumption" is important in the way that an audience is built up in the long run: they allow entire generations of readers (especially young people and students) to explore and discover authors (and musicians and filmmakers) at low (or no) cost and risk. Many fans (especially of science fiction and fantasy), myself included, developed their love of the genre as teenagers through libraries, because there is no way we could have afforded to own all those wonderful titles at the time.
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Posted: |
Mar 27, 2010 - 8:18 PM
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By: |
Solium
(Member)
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The point is I don't think illegal downloading is the only reason for a drop in the profit margin as noted. It could be pirating, lower wages, unemployment, execs taking more of the bands profits, etc. All true. That said, piracy doesn't become okay just because it's merely one factor in many leading to the demise of the labels. (I don't think you were saying otherwise, but I think it's worth saying.) The examples I cited (not that I think it matters) were established for years. One, who is in a well-known band, told me recently he's astonished when fans tell him how much they love his music, but don't feel any shame in saying that they downloaded it free from piracy sites. This is his passion, and he's happy people enjoy his music, but it's also how he pays for his mortgage, and to send his kids to school! People justify piracy in many, many ways -- people who steal also buy, the labels priced their products too high, and on and on -- but none of it makes stealing okay. But I actually think the original point of this thread, before it became merely "a," was why brick-and-mortar stores were dying, wasn't it? It's pretty much impossible for stores to have the selection a huge warehouse (like Amazon) has, and for a polished store paying rent in a mall or a nice section of town to be able to underprice a website with the low overhead of a dingy warehouse in the middle of nowhere. That's just the nature of the beast, isn't it? Oh sorry didn't realize the subject of this post had changed from brick and mortar stores closing into a "discussion" of piracy and the ethics or non-ethics of it. As you said the title of this thread has become non-descriptive. I totally agree with you, on two fronts. Stores are closing because of the economy, (and all aspects of it) and I don't support "fans" who do not purchase an artists works. (that after all is the circle of life economy wise) Your also right many of use can debate the piracy issue to death but I don't think any two sides with find a common ground. I have my own feelings on the matter but will keep it to myself.
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I must say that after perusing this thread, I really don't see why scoresalot has been excoriated - he was not (at least in these posts in this thread) advocating free and/or illegal downloading. He was asking a question and opened a topic for debate. Unless I misread something - and I'm happy to be shown I did if someone could simply quote what I missed.
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I must say that after perusing this thread, I really don't see why scoresalot has been excoriated - he was not (at least in these posts in this thread) advocating free and/or illegal downloading. It was his resistance to illegal downloading being a centerpiece to the original situation of why physical stores no longer exist. Once he started citing nebulous examples of why people illegally downloading were buying more CDs somehow, it became a situation. Of course, that argument has been around since the whole thing started with illegal downloading, and I simply don't believe it. People who do the illegal downloading don't buy more music - that's just a load of hooey. I think part of the brick and mortar demise is that people have become very lazy, as well as a new generation has come up that simply has no idea what real shopping is - the thrill of finding something new by seeing a CD or cover or book or whatever that you didn't know existed or that looks interesting. It was fun to go to a record store, and I discovered many of my most cherished albums simply because I liked a cover or the album sounded interesting. That doesn't happen so much anymore. I hate that most mom and pop bookstores have closed - it's not the same buying a book on amazon - it just feels wrong to me. I know one can get it cheaper - that's the amazon and Internet way and it's what's kiled the stores. It reminds me when Crown and all those types of places came into being and everything became a loss leader to them - just to beat the competition and the mom and pops. They killed them and then they themselves were killed by the same thing happening on the Internet. It's like everyone's eating themselves.
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Posted: |
Mar 27, 2010 - 10:14 PM
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By: |
Josh
(Member)
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Wow, I almost forgot about Crown Books. I applied for a job there when I was in high school and had an interview, but didn't get hired. I really wanted to work there, too, since I've always loved books. Now I'm a librarian. I sure showed them! A few days ago I went into a local Borders store, just to browse the shelves (and with the slight hope that I'd find a cool CD for a decent price), and although I saw a few interesting titles, the sticker price was over double that for which I could purchase the same exact CDs in the same condition through ebay or amazon marketplace. For example, the HARRY POTTER and STAR WARS (prequel) scores were marked at $18.99 apiece. Really?!? I love, love, love browsing the shelves in a "real" store, and support my local non-chain CD/LP shops (well, the ONE that still remains in San Diego County as of this posting, "Lou's Records") as much as possible, but I'm neither so stupid nor so rich that I don't care about throwing money away. I miss the days when I would hop from one used CD shop to another, all over San Diego, never knowing what I'd find each time and coming home with all sorts of surprises. C'est la vie.
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