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Posted: |
Jun 27, 2003 - 9:01 PM
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By: |
Olivier
(Member)
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Like Joe, I find this system very appealing. There are many song tracks I would gladly buy this way too, and I'm sure we're not the ones; this will entice in people who do not buy albums because they only want one track to buy individual tracks, and in the end, the equivalent of several albums.
And I too have been wondering about film scores, whether some might eventually be available that way as well.
Sure, this makes things easier for bootleggers since the music is ready to burn. But they would and actually already do copy discs anyway, so I'm not sure it changes anything.
I guess people will rather download & burn themselves and pay less than they would pay for a bootleg. Plus, you can make your own selection(back to point one).
Score-wise, maybe that would be a way of releasing more scores, or expanded scores, or scores that would have only gotten 500-copy runs?
The issue or re-use fees remains, but might it not it be somewhat balanced by the money saved not pressing 5000-3000 discs?
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Posted: |
Jun 28, 2003 - 3:05 AM
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By: |
Joe E.
(Member)
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Joe & Olivier--
Your comments are well thought out, and generally speaking on the money. Fox is releasing the soundtrack to "League" as an itunes exclusive for the US market, but is allowing Varese to sell directly from their website regular copies for those consumers unable to utilise the Mac-based system.
Oh, so it's been confirmed?? Wow, how interesting.  Hellstrom, where'd you find this out?
I wish I were more interested in this score. Actually, in fairness, I do like Trevor Jones; I just can't get too worked up over the movie itself - but then again, I guess everyone here knows full well that score quality doesn't necessarily have the slightest relationship to the quality of the rest of the film  (aside from which, I certainly don't know the film will be dreadful; I'll give it a shot, or at least pay attention to the reviews and the opinions of others here  ).
Assuming I do indeed turn out to like at least the score, I'm not sure which way I'll get it; I could wind up making it my first iTunes Music Store purchase. Like others here, I'd definitely prefer hard copies to, say, mere MP3s, but since instead of the older, less-sophisticated MP3 format Apple's using Dolby's AAC format, which offers much higher quality at a given bitrate (128 kbps, in the case of iTMS files), the files are supposed to sound a lot better (all the 30-second samples I've listened to so far have sounded great, although I have to point out I haven't listened with really high-quality speakers or headphones). I do know that at least many of the files are made directly from studio master elements, as opposed to just being ripped from the same end-product CDs we'd buy, and since CDs themselves aren't exactly perfect, in some instances the iTMS AAC files supposedly actually sound better than the CD releases, though I can't personally vouch for that (and don't know anyone who can). Still, most people who've tried them seem to think they're at least equal in quality, on the whole, so perhaps I ought to give it a try. I suppose the deciding factor for me will come down to cost - if it costs less to get the iTMS download than to buy the physical disc (almost guaranteed), I might go for that; however, I'm guessing I can probably count on eventually seeing a used copy of the CD in some used record store for perhaps $5 or $6, which would be even cheaper, so I'll probably wait for that.
My guess is that I'll continue to look for CDs (although I probably won't get many new ones anymore, partly to save money and partly to avoid enriching the RIAA member companies any more than I "have" to - since I can probably count on a certain number of each disc I want to eventually turn up in used CD shops, if I go for those instead of new copies I'll just get my own legal copies from the same pool of sales that would exist anyway even if I didn't get the discs at all, and thus contribute as little as possible to the total sales for each disc - yes, I want to hurt the labels, dammit; they've earned it).
However, in addition to going with used CDs wherever possible, I'll buy CDs only for albums where I actually want most or all of the tracks. For instances where I want just one or two tracks, I'll go to the iTMS.
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Joe & Olivier--
Your comments are well thought out, and generally speaking on the money. Fox is releasing the soundtrack to "League" as an itunes exclusive for the US market, but is allowing Varese to sell directly from their website regular copies for those consumers unable to utilise the Mac-based system. This is obviously an experiment, but the success of itunes for Mac-o-philes has led Microsoft to develop their own version which will be up and running around October. The itunes model is extraordinarily successful and will likely change the face of music-delivery in the next couple of years. Welcome to the future, boys.
Yes it's an experiment, sort of like NEW COKE and we all know how well that turned.
Did anyone at either FOX or VARESE consider how the retailers both in the US and abroad would react when they discover it can be downloaded for a cheaper price then the CD costs?
It could seriously hurt sales if retailers pass on the item due to this.
Also will I TUNES provide a link to VARESE for folks who wish to purchase a hard copy?
Something tells me they won't, because doing so isn't in their best interests, but I could be wrong.
I don't have time this evening to go into more detail, but this entire thing has clearly not been thought out very well by ANYONE involved
and IMHO will come back and bite them all in the ass.
IMHO of course.
Ford A. Thaxton
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Posted: |
Jun 28, 2003 - 5:08 AM
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By: |
Joe E.
(Member)
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Yes it's an experiment, sort of like NEW COKE and we all know how well that turned.
OOh, how logical. "New Coke failed, therefore all experiments are bad." 
The unavoidable fact is that technological advances have irrevocably altered the landscape of the... sales and "consumption" (ugh, I hate applying words like that to creative works...) of music. The music industry has, up to now, tried to preserve the status quo, with predictable results. The only way it's going to survive is if it adapts to and embraces technical innovations, rather than ignoring it. The masses have clearly, undeniably shown they want to be able to download music, they want to select individual tracks they want without buying whole albums, etc. The music industry can either try to force them not to, or it can offer legal ways to give consumers what they want. Given that so far the iTMS has wildly exceeded the expectations of the music industry, outside business analysts, and even apparently Apple itself, it appears this approach is working, whether you like it or not. Moreover, it's a hell of a lot bigger than any one company / service; try as they might, the labels simply won't be able to get this genie back in the bottle. At this point it's probably best for them to just make the most of it, rather than continuing to put their collective heads in the sand and pretend the Internet doesn't exist.
Did anyone at either FOX or VARESE consider how the retailers both in the US and abroad would react when they discover it can be downloaded for a cheaper price then the CD costs?
It could seriously hurt sales if retailers pass on the item due to this.
Well, yeah... and I bet it could seriously hurt Sam Goody's sales of an album if Wal-Mart, Kmart, and Target all carry it, too. That's unfortunate for them, but businesses have always had to adapt to new competitors (and technical innovations) or face extinction. I'm a bit surprised to hear this view from you, actually, given your heretofore label-centric view of the business; since when do you care whether retailers do well, so long as the label/studio/producer/artist gets its cut? If there were a new brick-&-mortar or even mail order store that suddenly offered music for less than existing outlets, I presume you'd have no objections and would just start buying your own music there; why should it be any different when the new retailer just happens to offer the music as downloads? Apple's essentially just the newest retailer on the block, with the distinction that it offers its music differently from everyone else.
As to whether anyone at Fox or Varèse considered this, reportedly the iTMS was in the works for 18 months, with the biggest, most time-consuming part of the process being convincing the 5 major labels to come on board. In order to accomplish that Apple had to present an extremely compelling case which the labels then had to carefully consider. Judging by the results, it seems their decision has been rewarded so far.
Also will I TUNES provide a link to VARESE for folks who wish to purchase a hard copy?
Something tells me they won't, because doing so isn't in their best interests, but I could be wrong.
No, iTunes won't provide a link to Varèse, just as Amazon.com, DeepDiscountCD.com, etc. don't. Does your local Barnes & Noble have a sign out in front telling people how to get to your local Waldenbooks?
Incidentally, the labels that release the original albums do get cuts of iTunes Music Store sales, just as they get part of the profits from sales of physical CDs, so I'm pretty sure Varése will get a share of the profits from sales of the LXG score. Apple doesn't license the music directly from artists, but from the labels and companies that already have the distribution rights (which, frankly, I think is unfortunate; I'd love it if they could cut out the labels and let the artists get a bigger piece of the pie they bake, but naturally it's easier for Apple to deal with a few label representatives than thousands of individual lawyers, agents and artists; aside from this, existing contracts between artists and labels obviously give the labels a great deal of say in how existing music is distributed. Perhaps in the future, as-yet-nonexisting music can be distributed without labels taking a chunk of the profits. One hopes).
I don't have time this evening to go into more detail, but this entire thing has clearly not been thought out very well by ANYONE involved
and IMHO will come back and bite them all in the ass.
IMHO of course.
Ford A. Thaxton
Well, that's possible, but I'm convinced the opposite is true; frankly, they're going to have to do such an experiment (offering an album as a download-only) sometime, and frankly they'd probably prefer to do it with an album they don't expect to sell billions of copies anyway (like, say, a film score), so they don't lose much if it does fail. You know what? You may be right; it very well might fail, as far as total sales of this album go. The thing is, they want to find out what this kind of sales approach will do, and they'd probably rather experiment with a limited-appeal title like the League of Extraordinary Gentlemen soundtrack than, say, the latest Madonna album. They're still very much experimenting with the iTMS.
Experiments are necessary. Even risk and occasional, non-disastrous failure are necessary; without them, there's no progress.
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Well, that's possible, but I'm convinced the opposite is true
You'll forgive me if I dismiss your opinion about business side of this issue as being rather ill-informed.
Ford A. Thaxton
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Posted: |
Jun 28, 2003 - 5:49 AM
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By: |
Joe E.
(Member)
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You'll forgive me if I dismiss your opinion about business side of this issue as being rather ill-informed.
Ford A. Thaxton
Of course. I'm certainly no expert on the music business, and don't pretend to be; I further acknowledge you to be an authority on how the business works, or at least how it has worked until recently. That said, I've been paying particular attention to this particular issue, and as far as I can tell you don't seem to have done so; I'd therefore suggest you're not entirely informed about it either, though I do acknowledge you have a more privileged perspective of it.
I should note your response is exceedingly general, and doesn't really address my specific points; I might be ill-informed, and still be right. I'd sincerely appreciate a more detailed, specific response discussing various points in my post, just as I sincerely appreciate the other factual information you regularly post on this board.
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Posted: |
Jun 28, 2003 - 7:01 AM
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By: |
Olivier
(Member)
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Ditto. I would like a film score album producer's opinion on the subject-- Lukas, Ford, Doug & Roger, Robert?
In particular: might re-use fees be somewhat balanced by not having to press the CD's?
I prefer to have a "real" CD too. Yet, if the sound is (almost?) just as good, in some cases (mostly to make compilations or to get hard-to-find items), I would gladly download the music through this system (thus pay for it).
Don't you think it would be a lot better for everyone (producers, studios, composers, ...) if out-of-print CD's were made available again that way? "Old" Varèse Club titles, for instance. Lots of people who weren't aware of it or couldn't afford it or simply weren't around (too young) at the time would thus be able to get "The 'Burbs" or "Cherry 2000". This wouldn't "ruin" the value of the original limited copies either, since it would not be a run of new "real CD's" (I certainly do wish for one, though) but a bunch of digital files.
Besides, I believe this would curb the bootlegging of such items: who would pay more for a bootleg when they could download the music? The only way bootleggers could react would be by lowering their price considerably, to almost the price of the download-- which means they couldn't make a big profit out of it, and would no longer be interested. I'm sure that, given the choice between legally dowloading "The 'Burbs" for $20 and buying a bootleg for $20-30, many (most) score fans would prefer to download, even if it does mean burning the CD yourself and printing out the insert yourself: score fans are not a bunch of amoral thugs looking for illicit items for the sake of it.
Moreover, doing it legally, the files' quality is guaranteed. Hundreds and thousands of files floating about the mp3-sharing communities are greatly flawed, and I'm certain a goot deal of bootlegs are just made out of such mediocre mp3's.
Many scores remain un-released because the studios don't think it would be profitable enough. Couldn't this be a safe way for them? If the score really doesn't sell, at least they wouldn't end up wih thousands of unsold CD's.
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Of course. I'm certainly no expert on the music business, and don't pretend to be; I further acknowledge you to be an authority on how the business works, or at least how it has worked until recently. That said,
blah,blah,blah......
The bottomline is that IMHO the entire "experiment" is seriously flawed on any number of levels that given more then five minutes of consideration should have been clear to all the parties.
I'm not against someone paying to download music and I feel that this is a very important tool in the future to deliver music,but there are still a number of issues that have to worked out that this approach doesn't take into account at this time.
The most serious issue will be the fact confusion that this will cause in the marketplace for the folks who wish to own this product.
Because at least in the north american market for all intents and purposes the AVERAGE person won't be able to find the soundtrack to this movie through any mainstream retailer online or though any major record chain.
In short, they not making it very easy for folks to buy their music and to a lot of folks downloading a full score and burning it to disk is just TMW (too much work), the objective should be to make it as easy as possible for the customer to locate and purcase your product.
Adding to the problem is the fact that many of these mainstream outlets are going to have very little reason to carry this product because of this deal in North America because of this sort of deal and given how soft the market is at this time, it makes selling the hard CD all that much harder now.
Ford A. Thaxton
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Posted: |
Jun 28, 2003 - 2:44 PM
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By: |
Joe E.
(Member)
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Thank you for responding with slightly more detail.
The bottomline is that IMHO the entire "experiment" is seriously flawed on any number of levels that given more then five minutes of consideration should have been clear to all the parties.
But isn't the point of an experiment to find out what'll happen? The thing is, they'll have to do something like this sooner or later; why not do it now, with this soundtrack? It's not like it had much chance of being a colossal seller anyway; from the POV of the record companies, isn't it better to cautiously dip their toes in the water with a film score that would sell only so many thousand copies anyway than with some huge, mainstream pop release that stands a realistic chance of selling millions of copies?
I'm not against someone paying to download music and I feel that this is a very important tool in the future to deliver music,but there are still a number of issues that have to worked out that this approach doesn't take into account at this time.
The most serious issue will be the fact confusion that this will cause in the marketplace for the folks who wish to own this product.
Because at least in the north american market for all intents and purposes the AVERAGE person won't be able to find the soundtrack to this movie through any mainstream retailer online or though any major record chain.
Well, the AVERAGE person isn't going to be looking for this score anyway; in fact, I'd bet dollars to donuts the AVERAGE person doesn't know what a "Trevor Jones" is. People who are score fans, on the other hand, are more likely to seek out the information...
In short, they not making it very easy for folks to buy their music and to a lot of folks downloading a full score and burning it to disk is just TMW (too much work), the objective should be to make it as easy as possible for the customer to locate and purcase your product.
Actually, it seems to me that downloading it on one's computer, without having to even leave one's desk, is a heck of a lot less effort than to get up, go to the store, look through the racks, etc. Heck, even mail order requires more effort - you have to go to your mailbox and open it, and hope the CD has arrived (days after you ordered it). The download, on the other hand, can be accomplished without even getting dressed, and you still have it as soon as you buy it - it's faster and easier, and probably cheaper as well, than ordering it or going to the store.
The only way in which the more conventional delivery methods can truly be said to be easier is that everyone knows they exist in the first place. I agree not every score fan is even aware of the existence of the iTunes Music Service, but they'll find out sooner or later.
Adding to the problem is the fact that many of these mainstream outlets are going to have very little reason to carry this product because of this deal in North America because of this sort of deal and given how soft the market is at this time, it makes selling the hard CD all that much harder now.
Many of which mainstream outlets - ones in North America? From the report here, they're not going to have the option to carry it anyway. Or do you mean outlets in the rest of the world? Right now, the only people who can buy iTMS files are Macintosh users running Mac OS X and with addresses in the USA. Do you think foreign retailers are worried about competition from a download service their customers can't even use? I'd bet lots of them don't even know about the iTMS, much less that the soundtrack for The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen is apparently being distributed in the US exclusively through it, and whether they do or not, they don't have any reason to fear its competition, unless huge numbers of European, African, Asian, etc. soundtrack enthusiasts happen to have credit card billing addresses in the United States and also happen to have access to iTunes (which means Mac users for now, though the Windows version could be out sooner rather than later - but we'll see...). Even if the Windows version of iTunes comes out tomorrow, it'll still be a while before the iTMS can sell to other parts of the world, for various legal and licensing reasons. The hardcopy CD of The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen will be available at retail abroad for several months before its music can be purchased there via iTunes.
Moreover, the iTMS has a lot of new releases of other, vastly more popular albums that do have domestic CD releases (releases where the iTMS indeed is in direct competition with the record stores and mail order houses), and it doesn't seem to be a problem. I don't see retailers up in arms over the fact iTunes users can get the new releases by Annie Lennox, Beyoncé, Korn, Smash Mouth, etc. more cheaply and easily than by going to the store or ordering CDs through the mail.
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Well, the AVERAGE person isn't going to be looking for this score anyway; in fact, I'd bet dollars to donuts the AVERAGE person doesn't know what a "Trevor Jones" is. People who are score fans, on the other hand, are more likely to seek out the information...
Of course your "Logic" fails to take into account one very important issue...
If the average human being (no film music fanboy geek) goes to see this film and afterwards tries to locate the soundtrack in North America and goes to the AVERAGE online ordering service or their local record to try and purchase this release they will be told that it hasn't been released or that it is only available as a high priced important.
That sort of confusion no one needs.
Ford A. Thaxton
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Posted: |
Jun 28, 2003 - 4:13 PM
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By: |
Joe E.
(Member)
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Actually, if you carefully reread my post, you may note I did in fact bring up that very possibility (in the paragraph beginning with "The only way in which..."). I do acknowledge there are going to be people who won't be able to find it right away; some of them might not learn of its existence and availability for years, and an unfortunate one or two might go their whole lives without ever finding out how to buy The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen. Somehow, life will have to go on.
Unfortunately, there's no perfect way to ever ensure everyone who wants a soundtrack will be able to get it, with any delivery system. Think about FSM - there are probably a few people out there who've been pining for years to have the score to The Omega Man or The Towering Inferno, and who didn't (or won't) learn of FSM until after they sold out. For that matter, there are probably people out there who really want some of the soundtracks FSM has that it's in no danger of ever selling out of, but who still can't buy the discs because they simply don't know about FSM. It's just a fact of the business, and not one limited to the iTMS situation. In fact, once iTunes is available for Windows, I'd bet more far more people will use it (and will be able to find anything they can think of, and quite a few things they can't, that are available through it) than will ever learn about Film Score Monthly. Come to think of it, this must be already the case, in fact, what with their being literally millions of iTunes users already - what's the circulation of FSM? How many discrete individuals have ever bought even one FSM CD? They've produced 74 albums limited to 3,000 copies each; if as many people as possible buy one and only one apiece, the largest number of people that could conceivably have discs from the existing FSM output is presently 74 x 3,000, or 222,000, and of course we all know in reality they sell a hell of a lot of albums to a much smaller group of people that buy multiple albums (heck, some people have bought multiple copies of individual albums). By comparison, the LXG soundtrack (if indeed it is being sold in the US only via iTunes) will still be available to vastly more people, even if they don't know about the opportunity (just as many don't know about FSM).
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Well I can take advantage of the download option (but given the lage number of hours necessary to accomplish it, in anything like the kind of bit rate necessary)....
Thankfully living in the UK I won't have to.
But I really have a problem with not getting a hard copy disc, If this is the way of the future.
Maybe I'm just old fashioned, but if I'm paying £15+ domestic, which is a helluva lot more than Americans pay (even though they think they are being ripped off), and for the most part I pay double that for imports (I.E. most of the things you others consider domestic), and imports are the majority of my purchases, then I don't see why I should stay legal.
And don't give me any of that moral crap, cos I've spent about £100,000 on my collection in my lifetime which is probably more than most others... So I've done my bit for keeping composers out of the poor house.
I live in a single room, with most of my belongings in storage, because I've spent most of my money on actual LP/CD's.
Yes, I could have bought my own place but I didn't. Yes, given the attitude of record companies... I've been a MUG.
I really don't take to the idea that having ACTUAL hard copies are only good so long as it suits the record companies.
They've made tons of money out of me, one way or another. If they think that they can now sell me legit, less than I can get as "another" option, they really do have another think coming, and if you want to ban me from this site, its fine by me.
If I sound irate, it's only because I feel betrayed.
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Speaking just as a consumer I'm very disapointed in this "experiment." I, for one, like to hold something tangible in my hand. The only things I ever download is the occasional free program or porn.
Plus, I do NOT like ordering directly from Varese because they use UPS as a postage service.
Downloading is a pain in the ass most of the time. Things take too long, they are corrupted, etc. . .
I'd rather take my chances, drive over to the local Tower or Best Buy and buy a CD ANY DAY OF THE WEEK.
Downlaoding songs is one thing, but entire score cds is just plain lame. To say it is easier to spend the time and money to download a score then burn it to CD is EASIER than getting off your fat ass and going down to the local "Record Shop" is just plain retarded. Yes, I could grow and cultivate my own vegatables, but I'd rather walk over to the local store (or produce stand) and buy freshly picked ones.
Call me old fashioned, but I'd take a good old fashioned CD any day of the week.
MV Gerhard
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Posted: |
Jun 28, 2003 - 10:57 PM
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By: |
Joe E.
(Member)
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To say it is easier to spend the time and money to download a score then burn it to CD is EASIER than getting off your fat ass and going down to the local "Record Shop" is just plain retarded.
No need to be rude (I presume you were addressing me, since I made an earlier comment about it being easier). 
It is in fact easier, unless you think getting up, leaving your house, going to the car, driving to the store, getting out of the car, entering the store, looking through the aisles and racks, finding what you want, carrying it to the register, possibly standing in line, paying for it, going back out to the car with it, driving home, etc. is "easier" than making a couple mouseclicks. I'm emphatically not saying it's necessarily better - I, too, do appreciate having a "real" CD to hold - but it clearly is demonstrably, provably easier. It's also better for the environment. On the other hand, it's probably not healthy for oneself; most of us spend too much time just sitting around already anyway, and even the exercise one garners from going to the store, even if one drives most of the way, is probably a Good Thing. Also, while downloads are undeniably easier, they're not necessarily faster than a trip to the store, unless one has a broadband connection. They may or may not be faster, for non-broadband users, depending upon individual circumstances. And yes, as I've cheerfully acknowledged both earlier in this post and in previous posts in this thread, I agree it's nicer to have a physical, factory-pressed copy with professionally printed inserts, etc., for whatever reason. It just seems either hardwired or drilled into us to want things, rather than intangibles, even if the real thing we're ostensibly getting it for is the music encoded on the disc rather than the disc itself. It may not be entirely logical, but it's a human thing, and I feel it, too.
That said... normally we complain about releases that aren't complete, or titles that aren't released at all, or that things are too expensive. Here's a case where we complain about the delivery system. Is having a physical "marker" of the music in the tangible world really as important as the music itself? I guess it depends upon whether one views one's CDs as a music library or a bunch of collectibles. I do like having my CDs, but I'm most concerned with their actual content, and I'm certainly at least willing to try buying music without tangible wrappers, if the trade-off has benefits that outweigh the sacrifices, as I think may be the case here.
I do realize, however, the real complaint of most others here isn't that the music will apparently be available via the service, but that it apparently won't be available through most of the other means. Perhaps there's some reason for this of which we're as yet unaware; maybe someone should ask Varèse or Fox...
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Posted: |
Jun 29, 2003 - 8:28 AM
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By: |
Olivier
(Member)
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Good points regarding the availability and information.
Yet, (as Joe pointed out), film score lovers are a minority, and relatively accustomed to looking for information/releases. And score CD's are not that easy to find and get-- especially FSM or limited editions.
Now a suggestion/hypothesis.
Goldsmith's rejected score for Timeline will usrely not be released nor included on the DVD.
How about releasing it electronically? This wouldn't affect the sales of Tyler's score: the die-hard Goldsmith fans who won't buy Tyler's score would be able to download Goldsmith's; the Goldsmith fans who want to buy Tyler's score (I do) will be able to get Goldsmith's as well.
Since the score *was* recorded, a bootleg will probably pop up eventually. Why not release the music this way, then?
As I posted earlier, Goldsmith fans would probably rather download it (and, yes, give money to those who led to the score's rejection) than enrich bootleggers.
As for information & access, this is something only fans know, and I'd say the majority of them learned about it on the Web. I suppose those who can't afford the download it can find a friend who can do it for them.
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Finally saw this. Looking for the cd now, 'cause it was great music.
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