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 Posted:   Jun 11, 2021 - 5:27 PM   
 By:   TerraEpon   (Member)

Excluding re-recordings, one.

No one should really need more than one, and it continues to baffle me why people keep the redundant issues. Buying a new one with more music/better sound/whatever to replace the old one? Sure. But why keep the old one?
I *kinda* understand when one is an 'album' with unique tracks or whatever, but like, when I see people show their Superman The Movie collection of like the original CD, the Rhino, the FSM box and the LLL I can't even comprehend the reasoning.

 
 
 Posted:   Jun 11, 2021 - 5:55 PM   
 By:   Jurassic T. Park   (Member)

Excluding re-recordings, one.

No one should really need more than one, and it continues to baffle me why people keep the redundant issues. Buying a new one with more music/better sound/whatever to replace the old one? Sure. But why keep the old one?
I *kinda* understand when one is an 'album' with unique tracks or whatever, but like, when I see people show their Superman The Movie collection of like the original CD, the Rhino, the FSM box and the LLL I can't even comprehend the reasoning.


For me it all stems from archiving. Like, I trust that Die Hard has been competently put together, but I can't verify for certain that every note from that first Varese release was replicated and remastered on subsequent releases.

Plus it's just commitment - I happily bought that first Die Hard release and appreciated it at the time. It had value. Getting an expanded version doesn't take the value away, it's just another addition to the family.

And why not keep all the different versions of the album booklets?!

 
 
 Posted:   Jun 11, 2021 - 5:57 PM   
 By:   Jurassic T. Park   (Member)

But that's an informal social contract that can be broken over time. Let's say for example that Varese had these Matrix elements and could have released them on 2-discs back in 2010... that would make me think they're shady and untrustworthy.

I'm sure that for most of their older Deluxe Editions Varese could have included the complete score (The Omen, The Final Conflict, Poltergeist II, Justine...) I don't think I'd describe them as shady and untrustworthy for not doing so; it was a different time when "Deluxe Edition" merely meant "expanded", not necessarily "complete". Goldsmith himself was also still alive and I've heard he nixed cues from some expanded releases he had input on, like the Omen expansions. Other composers do that too (Christopher Young and David Shire are often opposed to complete and chronological presentations of their scores).

Also, the Varese Deluxe Matrix from 2008 was not even close to the complete score, much further than say the old Deluxe Edition of The Omen was (missing about six minutes). It was merely everything they could fit on a single disc. If you look at this spreadsheet you'll see that the previously unreleased cues total between 12-13 minutes, but there's even more music premiering here than that because both the OST and 2008 Deluxe Edition had tons of micro-edited cues which were shorter than the versions as recorded for the film. All of those cues are now here untruncated. I'll be curious to see how the final running times compare, but for now here's a comparison document:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1a6O7S8txNoETkuSihPuOBZfFCQEtdaVStJBBUZ4xWZg/edit#gid=0

Yavar


Thanks for the googledoc! And it's a good set of points you make about the composers themselves not wanting to release certain cues and the market itself shifting.

My perception is the market expectations have now shifted pretty clearly to "COMPLETE" releases (I'd say they've always kind of been there), especially with the wonderful Williams and Goldsmith releases by LLL and Intrada respectively that include the complete score + alternates + album versions.

Those are pretty much the gold standards now IMO.

 
 
 Posted:   Jun 12, 2021 - 8:17 AM   
 By:   Tall Guy   (Member)


Note: I used Jerry Goldsmith as an example because of his perennial popularity (who am I kidding, he has no peers), but any composer will do.



I agree with this statement; he has no peers. There are some who aren’t as good, there are some better, but none was his exact equal.

My answer would involve one of the latter, as I’ve bought The Good, the Bad and the Ugly four times that I remember. The original LP, the equivalent CD, the expanded edition, the three-disc set. I’ve also had the film on dvd and Blu-ray.

Once Upon a Time in the West may be close behind, with the LP, CD, 50th anniversary CD in a wooden box, dvd and Blu-ray.

Of other composers (again from the latter of the two categories above in my opinion) I’ve had OHMSS on LP, cd, expanded cd, video, dvd and Blu-ray.

 
 
 Posted:   Jun 12, 2021 - 9:52 AM   
 By:   ZardozSpeaks   (Member)


How many iterations are enough for you?




I bought David Arnold's Enough once ... once is enough.

As for iterations ... could you please repeat that? I didn't quite get the whole thing its first time around. big grin

 
 
 Posted:   Jun 12, 2021 - 10:49 AM   
 By:   OnyaBirri   (Member)

If you are talking about very old recordings, sometimes you can justify having two versions.

For example, I have two editions of RCA's Duke Ellington Blanton/Webster band set.

One has lots of noise reduction, the other has little if any. I find that neither set is ideal, and some tracks sound better on one set than they do the other.

 
 Posted:   Jun 14, 2021 - 1:38 AM   
 By:   Nicolai P. Zwar   (Member)

Excluding re-recordings, one.

No one should really need more than one, and it continues to baffle me why people keep the redundant issues. Buying a new one with more music/better sound/whatever to replace the old one? Sure. But why keep the old one?


I keep some simply because I don't get around to do anything else with them. What else is there to do with them?
I have given some older recordings away, others I have kept. Sometimes I even have multiple copies of the exact same CD for various reasons, like RUDY, VERTIGO, A PATCH OF BLUE. I just never get around to trading them (I got so many things to do, so it feels I never get around to trading lists, putting them up at ebay, whatnot), and I can't bring myself to throw them in the trash.

 
 
 Posted:   Jun 14, 2021 - 2:14 AM   
 By:   Rameau   (Member)

If it's a top favourite score that you've loved for decades, then yes, why not (the same goes for a favourite rock/pop album). But if you're doing that for a lot of re-releases, then maybe you should cut back.

 
 
 Posted:   Jun 14, 2021 - 3:10 AM   
 By:   Thor   (Member)

One iteration is enough for me, and it's usually the first -- providing that the composer has whittled the album down to a good listening experience, and that the sound is good. In some cases, where a soundtrack only has one or two score cuts amidst songs, and those score cuts do no represent the score as a whole, I'm willing to "upgrade" to a new, score-only edition. Also some cases where the first iteration has really bad sound. RAIN MAN comes to mind as an example of the latter. Expansions hold no interest to me (the aspect of 'missing music' simply doesn't exist in my mind); neither do 'sonic upgrades' that are marginal, relatively speaking. So I'm saving a lot of money compared to many of you!

 
 Posted:   Jun 14, 2021 - 4:08 AM   
 By:   Nicolai P. Zwar   (Member)


My perception is the market expectations have now shifted pretty clearly to "COMPLETE" releases (I'd say they've always kind of been there), especially with the wonderful Williams and Goldsmith releases by LLL and Intrada respectively that include the complete score + alternates + album versions.

Those are pretty much the gold standards now IMO.


Yes, releases like LaLaLands STAR TREK - THE MOTION PICTURE or Intrada's ALIEN are very much like scholarly editions, including the entire film score, previous album editions, original ideas and alternates, etc.

They are very much a dream come true not just for film music listeners, but also those interested in the process of how a film score came to be. It's quite interesting how Goldsmith's first take on "The Enterprise" both differs and his similar to his later, more famous take. And, best of all, nowadays those so inclined can even study the actual orchestration and scores, thanks to publishers like Omni. So it's possible for anyone interested today to take a look at a film score like STAR TREK - THE MOTION PICTURE like you can with a Bruckner Symphony, comparing different versions of the same symphony in both print and recording. It's pretty much everything I ever wanted when I started to actively seek out and listen to film scores.

 
 
 Posted:   Jun 14, 2021 - 4:11 AM   
 By:   leagolfer   (Member)

I don't make too many double dips etc.. unless there's exceptions like Hellraiser that one I love. Otherwise titles have too be renowned classics or epics, I've done that maybe 2 dozen times.

There was the Omen Trilogy - Morricone's TGTB&TU - Romero's DOTD, Jaws franchise & Bernstein's Commandments, also some G/A - S/A that was well-worth upgrading.

 
 Posted:   Jun 14, 2021 - 4:22 AM   
 By:   Nicolai P. Zwar   (Member)

I don't make too many double dips etc.. unless there's exceptions like Hellraiser that one I love. Otherwise titles have too be renowned classics or epics, I've done that maybe 2 dozen times.

There was the Omen Trilogy - Morricone's TGTB&TU - Romero's DOTD, Jaws franchise & Bernstein's Commandments, also some G/A - S/A that was well-worth upgrading.


Yeah, JAWS is another one I upgraded several times... I had the original LP, but was disappointed that it slanted the music more towards the adventure stuff, and left off more of the Stravinskyesque monster-shark music, which was the actual reason I wanted to have the album in the first place. Then I got the both the Decca and the Varèse Re-recording, now two recordings which had all the music I ever wanted. Then I got the Intrada, simply because JAWS is a favorite movie and film score of mine, and the different mix and sonic upgrade was just too tempting. I also picked up Intrada's JAWS 2, even though I already had both the MCA LP (among my first ones ever) and the Varèse CD. Unlike JAWS, the original album release of JAWS 2 was already done very well, so upgraded JAWS 2 only because otherwise my Intrada Jaws set (from 1 to 4) would have been incomplete. :-)

But I'm pretty sure I'm done with JAWS, Morricone's TGTB&TU... I probably would spring for THE OMEN once more if they finally had the whispering chorus that underscores the dog scenes near the end.

 
 
 Posted:   Jun 14, 2021 - 4:40 AM   
 By:   moolik   (Member)

I dont really care about re issues...if I already own the previous one...

Expansions are fine but in some cases are just not neccessary for either the best cues have been already selected or they are just not worth it.( like for me DICK TRACY....which can be boiled down to a 10 min.score I guess..cause its repetitive over and over.Love the 10 min thoughsmile..and one of my top ten Elfman scores..the twin brother of BATMAN for me.)
HOOK...DRACULA ...THE FURY...1941...INDIANA JONES..CLASH OF THE TITANS....THE OMEN etc etc.well they _in contrary_ are
just pure joy and a great addition to the "ordinary" releases.
So yes keep ém coming but what I truly want ......are premieres of seventies ...sixities scores etc...just to get those awesome scores never before released .

 
 Posted:   Jun 14, 2021 - 5:06 AM   
 By:   Nicolai P. Zwar   (Member)


Overall it sounds like I'm similar to everyone else here.

THE MATRIX from Varese is a great example.

I had the original 10-track release and then later got the Deluxe Edition because it seemed to present the complete score. I was happy with that until I learned that the Deluxe Edition is NOT complete and now Varese has a new one out. BUT - the Deluxe was CLOSE to complete.

Though I am a completionist so I will buy the new release, especially since I like the score.


As far as film music is concerned, The Matrix Trilogy can take on the best, those are three superb scores, I like them all. The Deluxe Edition was an enormous improvement over the previous version, though I probably won't pick up the "Complete Edition"; it would be way too pricey for just a couple of extra minutes of music. :-)



Concord's release of the INDIANA JONES boxed set was an immediate buy because it had SO much missing music. At the same time I knew there was also more music missing so there would inevitably be another release.


I have the original LPs of both RAIDERS OF THE LOST ARK and INDIANA JONES AND THE TEMPLE OF DOOM, and they were a joke. I mean, the music was great, yes, but as a representation of the film score is was really, really lacking. There was so much terrific music missing, these LPs barely scratched the surface. However, the Concord set (and previously the Silva Screen release of Raiders) rectified that, and now I'm quite happy with the Indiana Jones collection. Yes, I know they are not "complete", but they flow very well I don't feel the need to "upgrade" them. They are now "whole" musical compositions, not just suite-snippets as the original LPs.
But who knows if I could resist a LaLaLand super edition boxed set of all 5 Indiana Jones scores a la PLANET OF THE APES. big grin

 
 
 Posted:   Jun 14, 2021 - 6:52 AM   
 By:   OnyaBirri   (Member)

I am curious if any of you have encountered a situation such as that which I cited earlier: Having two versions of an older recording involving two very different mastering approaches, neither of which are ideal, and both of which offer their own advantages and drawbacks.

 
 Posted:   Jun 14, 2021 - 7:43 AM   
 By:   Nicolai P. Zwar   (Member)

I am curious if any of you have encountered situation such as that which I cited earlier: Having two versions of an older recording involving two very different mastering approaches, neither of which are ideal, and both of which offer their own advantages and drawbacks.

Yes, there are those cases. One that comes to mind right away is the Varèse Sarabande release of ESCAPE FROM NEW YORK, which is very different from the Silva Screen release of the same soundtrack.

It's particularly noticeable in the "Main Title": The Silva Screen is more clear and spatial (as far as an electronic score can sound "spatial"), but the Varèse packs more punch, particularly in the synthesizer high-note that enters at about the two and a half minute mark. The Silva Screen is too muted there for some reason.

The Varèse Sarabande and the Kritzerland version of POLTERGEIST 2 (which are the same performance, mastered from digital and analog sources, respectively) are also two recordings of the same music I would keep.

The Decca and the Intrada release of JAWS have very different mastering, so different, that I hold on to both versions.

So these are examples I could think of right away where it makes sense to me to hold on to both masterings; I have kept these "on purpose".

 
 
 Posted:   Jun 14, 2021 - 7:46 AM   
 By:   OnyaBirri   (Member)

I am curious if any of you have encountered situation such as that which I cited earlier: Having two versions of an older recording involving two very different mastering approaches, neither of which are ideal, and both of which offer their own advantages and drawbacks.

Yes, there are those cases. One that comes to mind right away is the Varèse Sarabande release of ESCAPE FROM NEW YORK, which is very different from the Silva Screen release of the same soundtrack.

It's particularly noticeable in the "Main Title": The Silva Screen is more clear and spatial (as far as an electronic score can sound "spatial"), but the Varèse packs more punch, particularly in the synthesizer high-note that enters at about the two and a half minute mark. The Silva Screen is too muted there for some reason.

The Varèse Sarabande and the Kritzerland version of POLTERGEIST 2 (which are the performance, mastered from digital and analog sources, respectively) are also two recordings of the same music I would keep.

The Decca and the Intrada release of JAWS have very different mastering, so different, that I hold on to both versions.

So these are examples I could think of right away where it makes sense to me to hold on to both masterings; I have kept these "on purpose".


So I'm not crazy then. wink

 
 
 Posted:   Jun 14, 2021 - 7:47 AM   
 By:   eriknelson   (Member)

I have lots of them.

For example Goldsmith:

2 Alien (LP + CD)
3 Blue Max (LP + 2CD)
2 Boys from Brazil (LP + CD)
2 Capricorn One (LP + CD)
2 Chinatown (LP + CD)
2 Coma (LP + CD)
2 In Harm's Way (LP + CD)
3 Islands in the Stream (LP + 2CD)
2 Logan's Run (LP + CD)
2 Papillon (2CD)
2 Poltergeist (LP + CD)
2 Sand Pebbles (LP + CD)
2 Star Trek - TMP (LP + CD)

 
 Posted:   Jun 14, 2021 - 7:47 AM   
 By:   Nicolai P. Zwar   (Member)



So I'm not crazy then. wink


I didn't say that. :-)

 
 
 Posted:   Jun 14, 2021 - 8:32 AM   
 By:   keky   (Member)

Excluding re-recordings, one.

No one should really need more than one, and it continues to baffle me why people keep the redundant issues. Buying a new one with more music/better sound/whatever to replace the old one? Sure. But why keep the old one?
I *kinda* understand when one is an 'album' with unique tracks or whatever, but like, when I see people show their Superman The Movie collection of like the original CD, the Rhino, the FSM box and the LLL I can't even comprehend the reasoning.


I only keep the old ones when it's the better listening experience. For example while I really like the sound and some of the additional music on Tadlow's Taras Bulba I do think the original shorter presentation works much better as a listening experience. Since I don't like to program my CDs it's easier for me to just put in the old CD when I want to hear the shorter version.

 
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