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 Posted:   Jan 20, 2021 - 4:17 PM   
 By:   George Komar   (Member)

 
 Posted:   Jan 20, 2021 - 4:35 PM   
 By:   darthbrett   (Member)

I'm not sure something qualifies as a 'holy grail' when it has a perfectly fine soundtrack already. Discuss!

I'm not sure a soundtrack missing 60 minutes worth of music the composer wrote for the film qualifies as "perfectly fine", either. And if it's one of the OP's favorite scores of all-time I can certainly see it being a holy grail and for many others on here as well.

Count me in as someone who would also love to see Kamen's full score get a proper re-mastered & expanded release!

 
 Posted:   Jan 20, 2021 - 4:40 PM   
 By:   darthbrett   (Member)

 
 
 Posted:   Jan 20, 2021 - 6:51 PM   
 By:   ClaytonMG   (Member)

As someone who has never owned the score and really only remembers the song from this movie, I'd purchase this in a heartbeat as I'm a pretty big Kamen fan and love his Robin Hood score along with many others.

 
 
 Posted:   Jan 20, 2021 - 8:01 PM   
 By:   Grack21   (Member)

I'm not sure something qualifies as a 'holy grail' when it has a perfectly fine soundtrack already. Discuss!

Show us on the doll where the expanded soundtrack touched you.

 
 Posted:   Jan 21, 2021 - 2:04 AM   
 By:   spook   (Member)

Come on Thor..lets hear from you.

 
 
 Posted:   Jan 21, 2021 - 2:26 AM   
 By:   Thor   (Member)

It was primarily the use of the term 'holy grail' that interested me here, a term that has traditionally been used for scores with no release whatsoever (or extremely rare soundtrack albums).

 
 
 Posted:   Jan 21, 2021 - 4:54 AM   
 By:   Randy Watson   (Member)

It was primarily the use of the term 'holy grail' that interested me here, a term that has traditionally been used for scores with no release whatsoever (or extremely rare soundtrack albums).

Come on Thor, this is the FSM Boards. Of course 'holy grail' is used here differently then you would wink

But considering only roughly 1/3 of the score is available, I think the term 'holy grail' is certainly appropriate here.

 
 
 Posted:   Jan 21, 2021 - 5:31 AM   
 By:   Kevin Costigan   (Member)

It was primarily the use of the term 'holy grail' that interested me here, a term that has traditionally been used for scores with no release whatsoever (or extremely rare soundtrack albums).

The term "Holy Grail" is subjective, as are most of the comments here on this forum.

 
 
 Posted:   Jan 21, 2021 - 8:33 AM   
 By:   KeV McG   (Member)

You're gonna have to learn to read the room better, Thor.
With all due respect, the OP has done a lot of work up top to break down the music in the film (a whopping 94 minutes) and compare it to the hastily assembled CD that was produced at the time of the films release (37 minutes of score).
I appreciate the effort he put in, as do many others around here, it would seem.
The last thing he needed to hear was your usual anti expansion rhetoric.
I think most of us could guess that you're more than happy with the edited highlights edition.
I think this is one of those threads you could have walked on by.

 
 
 Posted:   Jan 21, 2021 - 8:45 AM   
 By:   Thor   (Member)

And you should learn to read my posts better, Kev. I don't give a a flying f**k if people desire an expanded THE THREE MUSKETEERS by Michael Kamen. Go ahead -- desire it all you want!

My interest wasn't in another pro/anti-C&C debate. It was rather in semantics, and the way we talk about stuff - sparked by the topic starter's use of the term 'holy grail' in the headline. That's the only reason I entered this thread and posted in the first place. Otherwise, it would hold no interest to me. I can't remember having seen the term 'holy grail' used for expanded releases. I've always seen it used in relation to completely unreleased scores, which makes more sense, since it deals with an almost mythological unavailability. It's an interesting (and scary!) development of the way we talk about soundtracks these days, and part of a bigger trend that marginalizes OSTs in our everyday speech.

 
 Posted:   Jan 21, 2021 - 9:28 AM   
 By:   darthbrett   (Member)

And you should learn to read my posts better, Kev. I don't give a a flying f**k if people desire an expanded THE THREE MUSKETEERS by Michael Kamen. Go ahead -- desire it all you want!

My interest wasn't in another pro/anti-C&C debate. It was rather in semantics, and the way we talk about stuff - sparked by the topic starter's use of the term 'holy grail' in the headline. That's the only reason I entered this thread and posted in the first place. Otherwise, it would hold no interest to me. I can't remember having seen the term 'holy grail' used for expanded releases. I've always seen it used in relation to completely unreleased scores, which makes more sense, since it deals with an almost mythological unavailability. It's an interesting (and scary!) development of the way we talk about soundtracks these days, and part of a bigger trend that marginalizes OSTs in our everyday speech.


Then you haven't been reading closely because I have seen many people on here list scores with an old release but without expansions as their holy grails. Fletch is one of my holy grails - the original soundtrack barely had any of the score on it and was mostly just pop songs. Dick Tracy was also one of my holy grails for 25 years even though it had a release in 1990. I love that movie and was dying to hear the full and complete score since it came out. It deserved a re-mastered expansion and thankfully Intrada finally gave us one. Same goes for The Rocketeer. Like Kevin already said, a holy grail is a subjective term that can be used for any score that someone covets. Regardless what you think a holy grail should mean doesn't change the fact that someone else could have a score that was released before but has yet-to-be-expanded as their personal "holy grail". There is no rule that says somebody's holy grail has to be a score that was never released. Maybe that's YOUR definition, but it may not be how a lot of others define it. A score that is also tied up in legality issues or supposedly lost its masters is also an instance where a score could be called a holy grail as well. And waiting 20+ years for an expansion seems like it is something that would be a holy grail for many of us, regardless if it had an official release before or not.

 
 
 Posted:   Jan 21, 2021 - 9:29 AM   
 By:   KeV McG   (Member)

I've seen the term 'holy grail' used countless times around here for potential expanded releases.
Sometimes for a title that's missing less than 10 minutes of music (usually a Goldsmith).
I think your redefining of the term is an effort to wriggle out of yet another attempt by you to derail a thread with your histrionics.

With all due respect.

 
 Posted:   Jan 21, 2021 - 9:34 AM   
 By:   Yavar Moradi   (Member)

Yeah complete versions of Alien and Spartacus and El Cid weren’t Holy Grails because they already had albums released at the time of the film...right everyone?? wink

Kev, lemme know what Goldsmith score missing less than 10 minutes has been regularly called a Holy Grail by multiple people here...methinks you are exaggerating with your “usually a Goldsmith” comment, yes? I can only think of solium and The Secret of NIMH, which thanks to Intrada adding one cue on their latest edition is missing just barely under 10 minutes of music now.

Yavar

 
 
 Posted:   Jan 21, 2021 - 10:00 AM   
 By:   KeV McG   (Member)

Haha. I should have added a winky, Yavar.
You caught me having a pop at Goldsmith nuggets everywhere (although TWILIGHT'S LAST GLEAMING probably falls into that category, if only for that missing 30 second coda!!) wink

 
 
 Posted:   Jan 21, 2021 - 10:10 AM   
 By:   Thor   (Member)

Thanks to those of you who provided constructive comments on the use of the term 'holy grail'. That's why I said 'discuss' earlier; it's clearly something that varies in application, and I appreciate the feedback. I don't agree with its use in this particular context, but I guess it's ultimately up to anyone how they want to use it.

There is another topic tangential to this, which I'm also very interested in - i.e. when people start threads asking for the release of a score without even acknowledging that a previous version exists. But that's for another time.

 
 
 Posted:   Jan 21, 2021 - 10:14 AM   
 By:   Kevin Costigan   (Member)

I've noticed a recent rise in threads like this that devolve into outcomes like we are seeing here. They all have a common denominator

I propose one of two suggestions:

1) Lukas and Thor have another "talk".

or

2) Going forward we know as a collective, that anytime we react to "Thor's script" in any way, IN ANY WAY we are feeding a troll. This includes those who think that informing him "to better read the room" or convince in rational ways to see another's perspective. This isn't about rationality. It's about attention. Thor thrives on our ATTENTION. If we as a collective simply ignore a clearly trackable pattern going back decades we will likely get better results

There is only one person who has such a script and only one reason why.

We have power...use it.

 
 
 Posted:   Jan 21, 2021 - 10:18 AM   
 By:   Thor   (Member)

You and Kev (the two Kevins!) are great at strawman rhetorics, that's for sure! And quite astonishing to read you talk about 'rational ways to see another perspective' when you're using personal insults like 'troll', or in Kev's case, 'histrionics'. Is that the benchmark of "rational ways to see another perspective" that you're striving for here?

And especially over something as innocuous, relatively speaking, as the use of the term 'holy grail' in relation to expanded releases.

I miss the Kevin Costigan I shared a meal with in NY in 2014.

 
 
 Posted:   Jan 21, 2021 - 11:02 AM   
 By:   Roger Feigelson   (Member)

I believe it will come to pass.

 
 Posted:   Jan 21, 2021 - 11:11 AM   
 By:   Tom Guernsey   (Member)

I was listening to the old album just before Christmas and it really is a fantastic score. I always preferred this to the more popular Robin Hood. I remember the last time I watched the film thinking that there were some great bits particularly towards the end, that it would have been great to have included on the CD.
A few Kamen scores seemed to suffer the fate at the time of not including music for some of the climactic scenes. Something to do with hurrying out cd releases before scoring was finalised?


Sidestepping the tedious debate about grails (Indiana Jones found it, his dad is fine now... they ride off into the sunset, the end), I am in the camp that prefers Musketeers to Robin Hood. Both fine scores, but Robin Hood feels a bit disjointed to me somehow, especially in the expanded presentation (notwithstanding plentiful highlights). Musketeers feels more tightly composed. I'd be delighted if this got a longer version sometime... never realised there was quite so much missing.

 
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