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Ray Worley -- back in a pre-Internet world I bought the Hardy book to have convenient references available, but it's not a book I respect. The Garfield I browsed in second-hand stores a couple of times, but his take on several titles important to me were so skewed that I never wanted it.
I'm not going to spend my life going over this -- and there are more of you here than there is of me. But as one who thinks for himself and has his own standards, Westerns tend NOT ever to take place 110 years before America's Civil War, or outside the USA while not featuring any American characters. (The presence of three American stars doesn't count.) And the principal conflicts of peasants vs. (let's say) Native North Americans, Catholics vs. pagans, and Christian faith vs. atheism certainly aren't high on the list of recurring elements of Westerns.
THE MAGNIFICENT SEVEN is a Western (by way of Kurosawa) because its characters are American gunfighters who risk their lives in Mexico for less than their usual rates, partly because of decreasing opportunities to ply their trade back home. But in GUNS FOR SAN SEBASTIAN an Army deserter in Mexico, disguised as a Catholic priest, is forced by circumstances into pretending he really is one. Other than the body count from his eventually motivating and leading a community of Mexican farmers in battle against hostile Indians, the story and film are thin on traditional Western content.
Morricone's score is magnificent and remains a personal favorite. It also was the first soundtrack album I ever bought unheard, taking a risk as a 14-year-old because I so loved his first three I already owned. (That reward of my youthful faith was important to my future film-music life.) But I consider the SAN SEBASTIAN music far more Mexican than Western in nature; and appropriately so. I think fewer people would think of it as a Western score if so many of Morricone's Westerns weren't set in Mexico or the Southwest.
However, you dissenters can keep at it. I'll never be arguing with you in MY home.
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But I consider the SAN SEBASTIAN music far more Mexican than Western in nature; and appropriately so.
Bernard Herrmann's Garden of Evil is a Western
Alex North's Wonderful Country is Mexicana, as is Jerry Goldsmith's 100 Rifles
Leonard Rosenman's A Man Called Horse is Indiana
Alex North's Canadian Pony Soldier is a North-of-the-Border Western
The Naked Spur is a Bronislau Kaper film noir score with one o' dem thar Stephen Foster tunes.
Gianni Ferrio's Sentenza di morte is jazz blues!
Jerry Fielding's music for Chato's Land could be tracked into a sci-fi show about exploring an alien planet's terrain - and audiences might not realize that music was written for a Western.
a steppe is a steppe is a steppe ... BOOM-DA-BOOM!
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Posted: |
Jul 11, 2020 - 12:03 AM
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By: |
Ray Worley
(Member)
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But I consider the SAN SEBASTIAN music far more Mexican than Western in nature; and appropriately so.
Bernard Herrmann's Garden of Evil is a Western
Alex North's Wonderful Country is Mexicana, as is Jerry Goldsmith's 100 Rifles
Leonard Rosenman's A Man Called Horse is Indiana
Alex North's Canadian Pony Soldier is a North-of-the-Border Western
The Naked Spur is a Bronislau Kaper film noir score with one o' dem thar Stephen Foster tunes.
Gianni Ferrio's Sentenza di morte is jazz blues!
Jerry Fielding's music for Chato's Land could be tracked into a sci-fi show about exploring an alien planet's terrain - and audiences might not realize that music was written for a Western.
a steppe is a steppe is a steppe ... BOOM-DA-BOOM!
You're onto something there.
There are dozens of scores for true, undeniably "Western" films that are far more Mexican-sounding than GUNS FOR SAN SEBASTIAN (which sounds much less Mexican than other Morricone Western scores):
besides 100 RIFLES & WONDERFUL COUNTRY there are, to name a few:
THE PROFESSIONALS
THE WILD BUNCH
RIDE, VAQUERO
more Italian Westerns that take place around the Mexican Revolution than I can count.
And so on.
In some (uninformed) circles, Western film scores can be perceived as all sounding similar (and sounding like Copland... or Morricone since the '60s). As ZardozSpeaks' list demonstrates, that notion is patently absurd. And they just scratched the surface.
I will admit, I love me the rousing sound of a Bernstein/Moross/Newman typical Americana score and I think Westerns bring out the best in many composers, but one could listen to nothing but Westerns and still have an amazing variety of musical styles to enjoy.
Bit of an off-topic rant here. Sorry. I was set off by some recent posts of people asking for recommendations of scores they might like, but "not Westerns, I hate Westerns". So short-sighted. (Nothing to do with this thread...I'm not implying that was the motive here. There's a perfectly good reason to be inquiring about Morricone's non-Western output).
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I think villagardens553 would be intrigued by Ennio Morricone's soundtracks with Gruppo di Improvvisazione Nuova Consonanza, such as Gli Occhi Freddi Della Paura (Cold Eyes Of Fear) or Un Tranquillo Posto Di Campagna (A Quiet Place In The Country). Also, EM's avant-garde library-type material for the Italian version of Space: 1999. These here could alter villagardens553's perspective on classically-trained composers who attempted in their film & TV work to write in jazz or rock idioms.
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There are dozens of scores for true, undeniably "Western" films that are far more Mexican-sounding than GUNS FOR SAN SEBASTIAN (which sounds much less Mexican than other Morricone Western scores):
besides 100 RIFLES & WONDERFUL COUNTRY there are, to name a few:
THE PROFESSIONALS
THE WILD BUNCH
RIDE, VAQUERO
more Italian Westerns that take place around the Mexican Revolution than I can count.
And so on.
Citing those films and scores shows that you're focusing on elements of mariachi trumpets, percussion, and rhythms -- all very appropriate for stories that contain typical Western-type action involving American characters running around Mexico. Now think about the fact that they're all in a Mexico between the 1860s and 1914. (Including all those revolution pictures you can't count.)
GUNS FOR SAN SEBASTIAN is 1750s.
Of course it's not as "Mexican-sounding" as the scores named above, because such mariachi music didn't exist that early -- so the thoroughly well-educated Morricone would not have composed in that idiom for that period. SAN SEBASTIAN's Mexican flavor lies his use of acoustic guitar. Does that make sense to you? His guitar material (such as in the cue "The Long Trek") is less foreground than the vocal love theme, but it reflects the Mexican milieu.
And to those who insist SAN SEBASTIAN "sounds like a Western" because they link the Edda Dell'Orso-vocal love theme to ONCE UPON A TIME IN THE WEST and other scores for Leone, I offer this. Unless you're my age, you likely encountered WEST before SAN SEBASTIAN. Unlike you, I heard and saw SAN SEBASTIAN almost a year before WEST was released in America, so I never confused that chronology based on discovering them out of sequence. The Dell'Orso solo vocals are not a Morricone Western trademark; they are a trademark of this composer, period.
I've never seen THE WONDERFUL COUNTRY, but of course GARDEN OF EVIL and 100 RIFLES (one of my favorite Goldsmiths since I saw it at age 15) are Westerns. Both follow Americans in Mexico engaged in a lot of horseplay, gunplay, and repeated confrontations with their own companions as well as with outside forces. (And within the conventional time period.) Yet, as I repeat: GUNS FOR SAN SEBASTIAN contains no American characters in its Mexican storyline; nor does its half-Mexican/half-Indian protagonist display any of the classic priorities of a Western hero, beyond his wish to avoid capture and prison.
It has no revolvers or repeating Winchesters, either.
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Posted: |
Jul 11, 2020 - 2:12 PM
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By: |
Ray Worley
(Member)
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There are dozens of scores for true, undeniably "Western" films that are far more Mexican-sounding than GUNS FOR SAN SEBASTIAN (which sounds much less Mexican than other Morricone Western scores):
besides 100 RIFLES & WONDERFUL COUNTRY there are, to name a few:
THE PROFESSIONALS
THE WILD BUNCH
RIDE, VAQUERO
more Italian Westerns that take place around the Mexican Revolution than I can count.
And so on.
Citing those films and scores shows that you're focusing on elements of mariachi trumpets, percussion, and rhythms -- all very appropriate for stories that contain typical Western-type action involving American characters running around Mexico. Now think about the fact that they're all in a Mexico between the 1860s and 1914. (Including all those revolution pictures you can't count.)
GUNS FOR SAN SEBASTIAN is 1750s.
Of course it's not as "Mexican-sounding" as the scores named above, because such mariachi music didn't exist that early -- so the thoroughly well-educated Morricone would not have composed in that idiom for that period. SAN SEBASTIAN's Mexican flavor lies his use of acoustic guitar. Does that make sense to you? His guitar material (such as in the cue "The Long Trek") is less foreground than the vocal love theme, but it reflects the Mexican milieu.
And to those who insist SAN SEBASTIAN "sounds like a Western" because they link the Edda Dell'Orso-vocal love theme to ONCE UPON A TIME IN THE WEST and other scores for Leone, I offer this. Unless you're my age, you likely encountered WEST before SAN SEBASTIAN. Unlike you, I heard and saw SAN SEBASTIAN almost a year before WEST was released in America, so I never confused that chronology based on discovering them out of sequence. The Dell'Orso solo vocals are not a Morricone Western trademark; they are a trademark of this composer, period.
I've never seen THE WONDERFUL COUNTRY, but of course GARDEN OF EVIL and 100 RIFLES (one of my favorite Goldsmiths since I saw it at age 15) are Westerns. Both follow Americans in Mexico engaged in a lot of horseplay, gunplay, and repeated confrontations with their own companions as well as with outside forces. (And within the conventional time period.) Yet, as I repeat: GUNS FOR SAN SEBASTIAN contains no American characters in its Mexican storyline; nor does its half-Mexican/half-Indian protagonist display any of the classic priorities of a Western hero, beyond his wish to avoid capture and prison.
It has no revolvers or repeating Winchesters, either.
Steven Lloyd - You're making a lot of assumptions combined with not-so-veiled digs at my supposed ignorance and it's getting kind of offensive. So, this is my last word on this subject which has gotten you into such a tizzy.
1) "As one who thinks for myself and has his own standards"...implying I don't, just because I quoted a couple of reference books. Nice. Condescending much?
2) "I'm not going to spend my life going over this " Obviously, you are, since you have expended several hundred more words here defending your militantly held position than I have.
3) "Unlike you, I heard and saw SAN SEBASTIAN almost a year before WEST was released ..." Unlike me? Why the fuck would you assume that? I too saw "Guns' first, so all your assumptions about how I interpreted the music from this point are wrong.
4) "I never confused that chronology based on discovering them out of sequence." Congratulations. You should be so proud. I never did either, but I'm not bragging about it.
5) I NEVER implied that mariachi music had anything to do with whether a score sounds Mexican or not.
6) I also NEVER implied that Edda Dell'Orso was a Morricone "Western" trademark. And I don't see anyone else on this thread making that claim either. I'm fully aware that he has used her for many, many scores that are not Western.
There is no definitive definition of what makes a Western film. Many people thinks GUNS is one, largely based on a somewhat indefinable sense of tone, style, geography (Mexico, regardless of date, has always been a staple of Westerns) and other factors. You don't. That's fine, we get it. There is no need to be insulting and condescending, obliquely or otherwise.
My apologies to the OP for the thread getting a little hi-jacked. I won't carry this any further.
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Well answered Ray.
Talking of reappearing demons, Tg, we havent seen that nutter who used to lecture us on what consitutes a western lately, have we? What was his name? The one we all laughed at? 
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La Donna Invisible
L' Assoluto Naturale
Bugsy
Frantic
Il Deserto Dei Tartari
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Ray, I apologize to you -- sincerely. Rereading what I posted here earlier, I recognize that some of my statements do seem condescending. That was neither necessary nor what I intended. (Unfortunately, I'm caught in a spillover of tension from dealing with a running, very unpleasant conflict at a different online forum.) No one here deserved my escalation. I've had a tough week but should have behaved better.
You wrote that you "never implied that mariachi music had anything to do with whether a score sounds Mexican," but you didn't specify any other aspect common to the few scores you listed as sounding more Mexican than SAN SEBASTIAN; therefore I gave my perspective. I wasn't trying to insult you but tried to be detailed in my explanation, where you had not been. This wasn't intended as insult, either. But while I attempted a debate between opinionated equals, I made you feel attacked.
You say you've already had your last word on the subject, so after the apology for my overkill, I'll follow suit. If you're a forgiving man, enjoy the view from Monument Valley in peace.
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Posted: |
Jul 12, 2020 - 1:17 AM
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By: |
Rameau
(Member)
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Lots, my two favourites (both from 1969) are:
La Donna Invisible
Metti Una Sera A Cena (the 25 track 2015 release is the one to have).
These two stand out for me, as I love every track on both of them (something you can't always say for a Morricone soundtrack album). La Donna sounds so classy & Metti is so much fun (certainly music to have an orgy & take drugs to!).
...oh & Scusi, Facciamo L'Amore? is brilliant, they must have had so much fun recording it, with Edda Dell'Orso making sexually orgasmic sounds on some tracks. The music is great & catchy (I'm assuming the film is a comedy). When I see pictures of Morricone looking serious (& a bit miserable sometimes), I think of this score, but it was from 1968, so he was a lot younger then.
Thinking about it, Edda Dell'Orso is featured on all three soundtracks.
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Also, thanks for Steven for his gracious apology. Humbly accepted and no hard feelings. Morricone fans should stick together, because we are obviously people of superior taste and sensibilities. 
Yes, sir; most important in this first week of the world with our maestro no longer with us. Salud!
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BULWORTH !
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