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Posted: |
Apr 14, 2020 - 3:15 AM
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By: |
Nono
(Member)
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Greystoke is a pure masterpiece, this situation is particularly damaging. If it's a question of money, crowdfunding could solve the problem. But I suppose it's a problem of rights, otherwise LLL or another label would have taken over ...
As bobbengan said earlier in this thread, John Scott felt discouraged by the low sales of his JOS CD releases over the years.
I think it's the main problem, because the rights could have been cleared, in my opinion, if he had had the will to do so. But since only a few people owned his soundtracks on JOS, he gave up.
I may be wrong, though, so if bobbengan could enlighten us?
I have regularly owned all the JOS releases since the mid 90s, and thanks to John Scott I could have some nice discussions with Luc Van de Ven since I ordered many JOS CDs directly from him.
Luc was fond of Walking Thunder when it was released.
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Posted: |
Apr 14, 2020 - 6:47 AM
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By: |
Dadid L
(Member)
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Greystoke is a pure masterpiece, this situation is particularly damaging. If it's a question of money, crowdfunding could solve the problem. But I suppose it's a problem of rights, otherwise LLL or another label would have taken over ...
As bobbengan said earlier in this thread, John Scott felt discouraged by the low sales of his JOS CD releases over the years.
I think it's the main problem, because the rights could have been cleared, in my opinion, if he had had the will to do so. But since only a few people owned his soundtracks on JOS, he gave up.
I may be wrong, though, so if bobbengan could enlighten us?
In the 2010 LLL CD edition, I read : "sadly, no other elements were located to give this wonderful score the expanded treatment it deserves".
If they didn't ask John Scott and let the opportunity for a full edition pass, it's even more unfortunate. But I am sure that a more than complete edition (some music being new even in the film) in 2 CDs would find many fans.
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Posted: |
Apr 14, 2020 - 7:18 AM
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By: |
Nono
(Member)
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In the 2010 LLL CD edition, I read : "sadly, no other elements were located to give this wonderful score the expanded treatment it deserves".
If they didn't ask John Scott and let the opportunity for a full edition pass, it's even more unfortunate. But I am sure that a more than complete edition (some music being new even in the film) in 2 CDs would find many fans.
MV Gerhard told that John Scott was approached, but declined the invitation.
As bobbengan said some time ago, John Scott discouragement led him to loose interest in releasing his film music.
It's actually what I understood.
Personnaly, I would prefer a JOS CD, with good sales: John Scott desserves it for all the hard work he has done for his label.
And as a classical composer, he would probably avoid any compression, excessive EQ and polishing which are usually used today in modern remastering.
His masters seem to sound great, Greystoke was recorded like classical music and deserves the best.
Even Shoot to Kill seems to sound better than the Intrada release, while their mastering are usually good.
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Posted: |
Apr 14, 2020 - 7:23 AM
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By: |
bobbengan
(Member)
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I think I can shed some additional light on the Greystoke situation. As Nono stated John had grown discouraged by the early aughts when piracy began to grow rampant, and that impeded his confidence in maintaining a record label with all the legal and logistical hassle that can entail. I imagine this is why he was uncooperative with La La Land Records when they did eventually release Greystoke commercially, and also with Intrada on "Shoot the Kill" (though obviously elements, albeit incomplete, existed elsewhere to facilitate an album). John had prepared album masters for his scores to Harem, Long Road Home, Hennessy, Symptoms, Billy Two Hats, The Queen's Garden, Jekyll and Hyde, Detonator 2, Ending Up, Black Rainbow, a doc about Winnie the Pooh's creator (can't recall the title) and several unreleased Cousteau scores (at least those are the ones I have, though I suspect there may be more in London) when he just up and called the whole enterprise a day. I just don't think releasing old stuff interests him anymore, especially when he has so much new music rattling around in his head, and occasionally entertains possible scoring assignments when they come along (which, to wit, has been primarily responsible for my long absence from this board).
Bear in mind also that John does not hold a lot of his film music in terribly high esteem. WALKING THUNDER may be one of the best western scores of the 90's but to him it's "unoriginal junk". HAREM may have one of the most gorgeous themes ever (to me, anyway) but to him it's all "workmanlike pastiche middle eastern scoring." When he found out THE WHISTLE BLOWER was getting released on CD he quipped something along the lines of; "I enjoyed that film, too bad about the music itself." It's been a slog getting him to see the value in his own work.
Allow me to qualify all of this by reminding everyone that John is a wonderful human being and generally fantastic company. Since moving to Los Angeles, some of my most cherished non-career memories have been getting to know the man. It's been so valuable and illuminating to befriend someone whose art I admire so deeply, but who is in a totally different stage of life (almost 63 full years my senior, which still astonishes me sometime). The last time I saw him, we attended a bimonthly chamber music event he enjoys frequenting, after which he read his own personal French translation of Poe's "The Raven" to me [semi-fluently] in a coffee shop in downtown Glendale. I'm sure those who've known John a lot longer than I have many such stories to share. It's really only the topic of album releases and the fate of his recordings and written scores during which he recedes into curmudgeonliness.
In any event, the positive reaction to the Youtube suites has been encouraging. Those things are a pain in the ass to cobble together, especially in the case of Robin Hood, Harem or Greystoke, where there's so much music from which to choose. I expected to only hear from two or three regulars to this thread, so I'm glad people are taking the time to explore these works. I'll make time to post more music later in the week. There is plenty on hand still.
Does anyone have any particular thoughts or favorites with regard to the previously-unheard works?
- Bob
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Posted: |
Apr 14, 2020 - 7:30 AM
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By: |
TominAtl
(Member)
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Greystoke is a pure masterpiece, this situation is particularly damaging. If it's a question of money, crowdfunding could solve the problem. But I suppose it's a problem of rights, otherwise LLL or another label would have taken over ...
As bobbengan said earlier in this thread, John Scott felt discouraged by the low sales of his JOS CD releases over the years.
I think it's the main problem, because the rights could have been cleared, in my opinion, if he had had the will to do so. But since only a few people owned his soundtracks on JOS, he gave up.
I may be wrong, though, so if bobbengan could enlighten us?
In the 2010 LLL CD edition, I read : "sadly, no other elements were located to give this wonderful score the expanded treatment it deserves".
If they didn't ask John Scott and let the opportunity for a full edition pass, it's even more unfortunate. But I am sure that a more than complete edition (some music being new even in the film) in 2 CDs would find many fans.
Indeed, this fan would gobble it up in a heartbeat.
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As most of the stuff you post here is unreleased it is like hearing a ' new score' by someone you like,to me anyway. Melody ,depth ,well orchestrated things rare today .And with most of the golden oldies gone it's not something I think will return in any large amount.So keep up the good.work.
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Currently giving Robin Hood a listen. So far, it’s a wonderful score with an appropriately Wagnerian touch. Just wish there was a print of the film with this score so I could see how it works with the picture (the same goes for Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde, if that ever turns up).
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As someone who already has so many amazing JOS CDs on my shelf, I am positively mesmerized by the gorgeous melodies that I've been listening to in these YouTube offerings.
Thank you ever so much, bobbengan.
You are indeed a good friend of the maestro to offer such a remarkable sampling of his outstanding oeuvre.
I hope all of these works find their way to a proper digital mastering in CD format or for legitimate online download.
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Posted: |
Apr 14, 2020 - 10:46 AM
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By: |
Dadid L
(Member)
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Thanks to Nono and Bobbengan for their enlightened information. I suspected a problem behind the brief LLL CD, but not this one.
Of course I understand Scott's attitude towards his old scores, an artist must move forward and favor his recent work. But as far as Greystoke is concerned, probably the best-known and popular film he worked on, I find it hard to follow his reasoning - but discouragement is not a matter of logic only, I know. I would have thought that Greystore could on the contrary have been the means of promoting other works, perhaps in a box set, or "simply" by distributing it as widely as possible - and from this point of view, LLL has more know how than Jos Records in my opinion. With what financial losses for Scott, I don't know... Of course, a full Jos Records edition would be a treasure, but also a lot more work for him. Could a crowfounding be organized for this purpose ?
I also know that some of the director's musical choices displeased him, and that the work on this film was not ideal... but precisely, it is time for Scott to make everyone hear his version of the story. Every artist must put forward his art, but every work has its flag. For me, who discovered John Scott's work by discovering Greystoke when it came out on the giant screen of the Kinopanorama cinema in Paris, in six tracks magnetic sound, this music is quite simply a classic. And I'm not the only one. So many great works remain in the shadows because their recording has been destroyed... what a waste !
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Posted: |
Apr 14, 2020 - 8:36 PM
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By: |
Zoragoth
(Member)
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Does anyone have any particular thoughts or favorites with regard to the previously-unheard works?
- Bob
I can attest, on a minor level, to Mr Scott's generosity of spirit. Back in the '80s I ordered quite a few titles from JOS records, and he actually called me and we chatted for a good 20 minutes or more. As someone who holds ANTONY & CLEO and THE FINAL COUNTDOWN close to his heart, this was a thrilling and moving experience. By the way, when I told him I had taped his score to PEOPLE THAT TIME FORGOT (my first encounter with John Scott!) at a drive-in theater on a freezing winter night when I was in high school, he told me he had done something similar - taped a score from television and made his own soundtrack - his was Corigliano's REVOLUTION.
These selections have made for a thrilling listen. Hard yet to pick favorites but the Guitar Concerto and Robin Hood defintitely stand out.
And Bob, your use of those fabulous and atmospheric paintings by one of my favorite artists, Thomas Hart Benton, point to a taste for landscape art as estimable as the one you possess when in comes to music!
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I feel I simply must chime in with my thanks for and praise of John Scott's music and bobbengan's generous contributions. These YouTube suites are amazing and real eye openers. I have long been in awe of John Scott's music, but for some reason or other I still don't know many of his scores. I feel this is going to change. Knowing his score to SHOOT TO KILL pretty well, this suite of unreleased material is just plain amazing. Many thanks!
I just dissected the SHOOT TO KILL suite and wonder if you may have split the wonderful theme variation into two parts. Is that correct? This is how I believe the suite is made up:
00:00 - 03:48 End Titles
03:48 - 06:31 Theme Variation (Part 1) (unreleased)
06:31 - 07:12 I Hate the Woods
07:12 - 09:58 Climbing Trek (alternate take) (unreleased)
09:58 - 12:05 The Storm (Part 2) (alternate) (unreleased)
12:05 - 15:27 Main Title (original version) (unreleased)
15:27 - 17:24 Boat Chase
17:24 - 20:16 Climbing Trek (original version)
20:16 - 20:41 The Bodies (ending only)
20:41 - 21:39 Bishop's Falls
21:39 - 23:33 Theme Variation (Part 2) (unreleased)
The theme variation and the alternate main title are particularly fascinating, especially since the original main title segues straight into the opening of "Kill My Wife Next (original version)", so apparently these two would have been connected in the original opening of the film.
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