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 Posted:   Mar 10, 2024 - 11:45 AM   
 By:   Spymaster   (Member)

The EMI Mamhatten CDs just followed their house style at the time. The Rocky and Pink Panther CDs are the same. Midnight Cowboy too from memory. Boring but they did their jobs.

The briefly undermixed timpani on Live and Let Die during "Solitaire Gets Her Cards" is, unfortunately, nothing compared to the diminished flute and snare drum passages during a couple of cues on Octopussy... (from tapes mixed for the film).

(I rebought the EMI LALD CD after getting this LLL to retrieve the *genuine* album mix)

 
 
 Posted:   Mar 10, 2024 - 5:42 PM   
 By:   BasilDowl   (Member)

The EMI Mamhatten CDs just followed their house style at the time. The Rocky and Pink Panther CDs are the same. Midnight Cowboy too from memory. Boring but they did their jobs.

The briefly undermixed timpani on Live and Let Die during "Solitaire Gets Her Cards" is, unfortunately, nothing compared to the diminished flute and snare drum passages during a couple of cues on Octopussy... (from tapes mixed for the film).

(I rebought the EMI LALD CD after getting this LLL to retrieve the *genuine* album mix)


Genuine only to that specific EMI CD release... I'd go as far as to say that the miniscule timpani passage you seem to be hung up on is actually a mistake specific to that old, 'budget' mix. With the number of releases and mixes of the film that have been put out in the last 50 years (VHS, DVD, BluRay, all the variations of Dolby Digital etc etc) you'd have to go back to the actual film release to check that. On the balance of probability, I'd suggest that the state of the art CD we've just been treated to is as close as you'll get to the composer's intended film score mix as it should have sounded in the cinema in 1973. The fact that you prefer the EMI mix is fine, but you seem to be arguing that it is 'correct'.

And what's wrong with Octopussy...?!

 
 Posted:   Mar 10, 2024 - 10:46 PM   
 By:   Stephen Woolston   (Member)

And what's wrong with Octopussy...?!

Nothing, but he won't let go of it.

Ref: the EMI-Manhattan CDs. Anyone who thinks these were mixed from multitrack elements or had any intentful remastering done is overestimating the production, I think. They would have been straight-to-CD transfers of the pre-mixed stereo album masters, with as little intervention as possible.

 
 
 Posted:   Mar 11, 2024 - 2:20 AM   
 By:   RichC   (Member)

Indeed - those old CDs will doubtless have used off-the-shelf masters, with no further tampering: many of the tools now used in mastering and restoration simply didn't exist back then anyway, but even if they had, it's doubtful anything would have been utilized. Drop-outs, tape damage, etc., all will have been as it was on whatever master was used. It may not have even been a first-generation album master that was provided. Album masters, as with film negatives, were - and still are in some cases - often considered inaccessible except in exceptional cases, so as to protect them from undue harm. It would be interesting to know what the source was for those 80s/90s Bond CDs, but it certainly won't have been multi-track recordings made on the day of performance.

Just as a point of interest, if we have a listen to the original mono mix of Live And Let Die we find that, yes, that contentious timpani is at the forefront of the mix at that point. Case closed. Except, caveats apply. It's mono, and it's a mix created specifically for the film, so not necessarily representative of George Martin's intentions for the stereo LP. That the original album follows the film mix in this instance is certainly worth noting, though. Equally interesting is that the 4-track release apparently does not.

Ideally, as a generalization, I've always preferred an "album version" to be the album vesion, not a remixed approximation of said. If nothing else, it prevents any alteratons/revisions from creeping into the mix, and presents a fascinating comparison with the newly remastered version often included elsewhere in the same set. Trouble is, it's not always possible - or desirable. What if the album master (or any generation of master close to it) no longer exists, or now exhibits damage that renders it unlistenable? Perhaps it's under lock-and-key somewhere, never to be played again.

A View To A Kill is a case in point - when the time (hopefully) comes for this title to receive an expansion, it is to be hoped that an alternative source for its album presentation can be found, as it was clear that, between 1985 and 2003, whatever was used as the master for that re-release had deteriorated to such an extent that very bothersome wow could be heard throughout, which got progressively worse throughout its running time. It's no-one's fault - it's the best restoration that could be achieved in the 00s. Maybe that damage could be eradicated now - or maybe it wouldn't have to be, if a more stable source for the album cuts could be found. At present, however, for all that the Japanese CD has a slightly rougher sound, and some technical anomalies, it is by far the better listen for this audience member, as all those lush, sustained notes don't wander all over the shop.

So yes, a vote for albums versions as album versions where possible, please - but with an acknowledgement that this might not always be possible.

One suspects that, in the case of Live And Let Die, Chris Malone was fully aware of the mixing differences between the LP and his 2013 rendition, but made the decision to include his mix of those tracks to give audiences a chance to hear a "what-might-have-been" audiophile version of the original album, knowing that purists would be keeping hold of the original CD anyway. But that's just a guess! There are no rights or wrongs in these types of decisions - just personal preferences and opinions. smile

 
 
 Posted:   Mar 11, 2024 - 4:25 AM   
 By:   Spymaster   (Member)

And what's wrong with Octopussy...?!

There are a few instances where key instruments such as flute (opening of "Arrival at the Island of Octopussy") and snare drum (last 30 seconds of "Bond at the Monsoon Palace") are mixed much lower than they are in the Barry-produced album mix. I personally don't like the "film mix" much as the album mix and, while listening, I'm continually wondering what the (sadly apparently missing) master tapes must have sounded like... (the only truly definitive source?)

 
 
 Posted:   Mar 11, 2024 - 4:33 AM   
 By:   Spymaster   (Member)

Ref: the EMI-Manhattan CDs. Anyone who thinks these were mixed from multitrack elements or had any intentful remastering done is overestimating the production, I think. They would have been straight-to-CD transfers of the pre-mixed stereo album masters, with as little intervention as possible.

Which is why they're so valuable in some respects.

 
 
 Posted:   Mar 11, 2024 - 4:48 AM   
 By:   seinmind   (Member)

Just as a point of interest, if we have a listen to the original mono mix of Live And Let Die we find that, yes, that contentious timpani is at the forefront of the mix at that point. Case closed. Except, caveats apply. It's mono, and it's a mix created specifically for the film, so not necessarily representative of George Martin's intentions for the stereo LP. That the original album follows the film mix in this instance is certainly worth noting, though. Equally interesting is that the 4-track release apparently does not.

Thanks, this is insightful, especially with some background into the original EMI CDs that were (for my start in life anyway) "available" when I began to take an interest and desire to purchase.

On the Stereo LP was the timpani more prominent (matching the EMI 1988 CD)? Was there ever a mono Live and Let Die soundtrack release on vinyl?

Thanks again for sharing this information. To reiterate, I am not picking apart the LLL release, but rather exploring a 50-year-old recording and the practices of the recording industry.

 
 
 Posted:   Mar 11, 2024 - 4:56 AM   
 By:   Spymaster   (Member)

On the balance of probability, I'd suggest that the state of the art CD we've just been treated to is as close as you'll get to the composer's intended film score mix as it should have sounded in the cinema in 1973. The fact that you prefer the EMI mix is fine, but you seem to be arguing that it is 'correct'.

Who knows what is "correct" after 50 years but some things just sound musically more sensible. In the case of this brief passage in LALD the rest of orchestra lands on a sustained chord for a couple of seconds and the timpani takes over, pushing the dramatic emphasis onto that instrument. Drop it away and you're left with only that long, fairly uninteresting chord. Musically it makes more sense to emphasise the timpani because it's the only instrument that's "active". Just for example.

Neil has explained that this change goes back to a second (quad?) version of the album that Martin produced in the 70s so is by no means unique to this latest release.

 
 Posted:   Apr 3, 2024 - 9:31 AM   
 By:   Doctor Shatterhand   (Member)

For anyone's curiosity, here is a short clip with the deleted boat chase music reedited into the segment.

 
 Posted:   Apr 3, 2024 - 9:54 AM   
 By:   Doctor Shatterhand   (Member)

Forgive me if this has been discussed on this thread.

Can anyone explain the last part of disc one's track #27 On The Train / Finale?

This first part was originally mixed in the second part of the original album #9 Bond Drops In.

Am I missing something? Was this music deleted from the film but was originally part of the scene where Bond, Solitaire and Felix Leiter say goodbye at the train station?

Does anyone have the backstory on this?

Thank you for your patience with me.

 
 Posted:   Apr 3, 2024 - 1:54 PM   
 By:   NSBulk   (Member)

Was this music deleted from the film

Yes it was. As you noted, the original album track "Bond Drops In" combined these cues (reel 5 part 3 and reel 12 part 2). R12P2 was unused but documentation has the title "On The Train."

Neil

 
 Posted:   Apr 3, 2024 - 11:36 PM   
 By:   Doctor Shatterhand   (Member)

Was this music deleted from the film

Yes it was. As you noted, the original album track "Bond Drops In" combined these cues (reel 5 part 3 and reel 12 part 2). R12P2 was unused but documentation has the title "On The Train."

Neil


Fascinating. I took the liberty of trying to guess where the "On the Train" music fits in the final scene. See what you think and get back to me at your convenience?

The portion where I left out some of the music was due to the musical notes no longing hitting the scene as well as it did in the first half. I am guessing the producers had another scene or two where Tee Hee is moving from the Mail Train into the corridor and that George Martin may have scored the music before a final edit.

I therefore picked up the music when Tee Hee is killing the electrical box. To make this last part work before the fight scene I took the last notes of the music and synced it to when Tee Hee pushes Solitaire up into the wall of the upper berth. The music works well in the second half of this scene.

Of course this is merely a guess but I was dying to see how this music worked and I believe it does. However, I feel the producers were right in leaving it out all together because it builds up a nice suspense with just the ambiance and little dialogue from Solitaire.



 
 
 Posted:   Apr 4, 2024 - 4:42 AM   
 By:   BasilDowl   (Member)

See what you think and get back to me at your convenience?


roll eyes

Amazing.

 
 
 Posted:   Apr 4, 2024 - 10:40 PM   
 By:   mortenbond   (Member)

Really cool to see the film with the alternate music. The spotting seems correct too. Well done. I would love to see more from the other Bonds.

 
 
 Posted:   Apr 9, 2024 - 6:22 AM   
 By:   O.S.T.86   (Member)

Hi,

Further to the current offer (25% OFF YOUR ENTIRE ORDER), I would like to know if Live and Let Die will be available before the end of the sale on April 16th.


Samuel

 
 
 Posted:   Apr 9, 2024 - 10:50 AM   
 By:   Bond1965   (Member)

Hi,

Further to the current offer (25% OFF YOUR ENTIRE ORDER), I would like to know if Live and Let Die will be available before the end of the sale on April 16th.


Samuel




James

 
 Posted:   Apr 10, 2024 - 1:08 PM   
 By:   JackBlu78   (Member)

will LLL ever stop using their cheap CD jewel cases?

 
 
 Posted:   Apr 10, 2024 - 1:29 PM   
 By:   Prince Damian   (Member)

Don't recall having this problem with theirs, any more or less than others.

 
 
 Posted:   Apr 10, 2024 - 3:10 PM   
 By:   Graham   (Member)

Don't recall having this problem with theirs, any more or less than others.

Agreed, it happens from time to time.

Never had any permanent damage from it.

Ask for a replacement inlay.

Graham

 
 
 Posted:   Apr 11, 2024 - 2:01 AM   
 By:   Spymaster   (Member)

will LLL ever stop using their cheap CD jewel cases?

Dunno. They've been rubbish for years now. I often replace them but it's a pain. They feel horribly cheap.

 
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