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Posted: |
Nov 30, 2010 - 5:55 AM
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By: |
Gunnar
(Member)
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Daniel, thanks for sharing your review with us. I might not agree with all of it, but I am grateful that you try to bring back the discussion about the music and its function in the film to this board.
Very good point about the missing Voldemort theme, and now that you mention it, his theme from the first film could actually have been a emotionally powerful addition to "The Elder Wand" and other portions of the score.
One thing I would question in your review is this statement:
... a number of Desplat's orchestrations and flourishes, no doubt due to longtime Williams' orchestrator Conrad Pope's contribution to Desplat's intriguing score, recall a considerable amount of Williams' work.
From all I've heard about Desplat, he is an ardent admirer of Williams' work and undoubtedly paid close attention to his compositional style. Therefore I really don't think that it needed Pope's contribution to make certain portions of the score reminiscent of Williams' orchestrations.
As for the development of the music throughout the series, I'll repeat what I said in the other thread, which seems to have lost any attraction to readers beyond the discussion of the score's different editions...
I found the change in style that Yates went for by using first Hooper and then Desplat totally justified. The first films mainly had to introduce us to this new world - hence the slightly formulaic storylines in the first to parts. We learned about this world through Harry, and his boyish sense of wonder and excitement was perfectly captured in Williams' scores. Also, these scores had to convince us to believe in this new world and all its magic (and might have had to help out here and there when the visual effects were less than perfect).
Now, towards the end of the series, the characters have matured, the magic has become normal, and the personal development as well as the more threatening developments in this world have taken over. I can hear all of this in Desplat's music, and hence, for me it works. I also cannot see great set-pieces in this film, and hence the absence of equally great standalone compositions is only consequential. And finally, if we buy into the idea that Hedwig and her theme were our guides and introduction to the world Harry encountered after his 11th birthday, its virtual absence is justified by both the way the poor owl is dispatched in HP 7 and the fact that this world that Harry encountered, through the rise of Voldemort, is no more.
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Thanks for everybody's comments so far.
maleficio - I have brightened the font a little, hope it's easier now.
Gunnar - very valid points, I think my main reservation regarding the continued inclusion of Hedwig's theme was the arbitrary abandonment of all the others. It's probably far too suppressing for new (and in the case of Desplat, already firmly established) composers to simply stick with or develop and twist the work already completed by others. It's just a little wish fulfilment on my part in the case of Voldemort's theme in particular. And that trend was started by Patrick Doyle. But you're right, it stands to reason that the music would have a markedly different tone by the seventh and eighth pictures, and as you say, Desplat's appreciation of Williams' style and musical grammar are a distinct asset to The Deathly Hallows.
Mike - Hedwig's theme is treated to a bold, heroic statement beginning at around 1:52 into Sky Battle, it's actually quite magnificent. As Hedwig is struck down the theme tapers to a sad and subdued rendition.
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Posted: |
Nov 30, 2010 - 7:34 AM
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By: |
Mike West
(Member)
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Ah, you are right, I did not remember,
but I did notice it watching the movie. After that there is the four note voldemore motif.
There is a very strong musical identity for the death eaters with impressive patterns in d-minor (first heard in "Snape to Malfoy Manor"), I think that will be the music for Voldemore in the last chapter, and it is somewhat close to Williams motif (Williams: First note, up to the third note, then down to the major seventh / Desplat: Third note, down stepwise to the major seventh)
I agree that there is in some cases a nod to the Lord of the Rings score, for example in the beautiful clarinet statements of that friendship theme and also in that death eater music with those pattern-based music in d-Minor, which is in a way a relative to the d-Minor Ringwraiths-music.
What I meant with the thematic approach: Desplat uses themes in a much more subtle way compared to Williams' catchy ideas which you can easily associate with something on screen.
I like that and see that also as a quality, not as a lack of something.
But that is of course a matter of taste. I like both of them (ideas and composers) very much and think Desplat approach to HP7 works with the picture.
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Mike, I agree entirely that Desplat's ideas are far more subtle than those of Williams and I think that might make for a more interesting listening curve. Instead of being instantly recognisable Desplat's approach allows the listener/viewer to discover their own way, make their own journey I guess, through his music, allowing his themes and their subtle complexities to unfold with each subsequent listen. Possibly making for a more rewarding experience, ultimately. One thing is certain from my perspective: I am eagerly anticipating Desplat's work for the finale of the series.
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Posted: |
Nov 30, 2010 - 10:36 AM
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By: |
Gunnar
(Member)
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Instead of being instantly recognisable Desplat's approach allows the listener/viewer to discover their own way, make their own journey I guess, through his music, allowing his themes and their subtle complexities to unfold with each subsequent listen. Possibly making for a more rewarding experience, ultimately.
I totally agree that subsequent listens to Desplat's score rather increase the appreciation for his work than diminish it. I would doubt, however, that it is more rewarding than Williams' approach. The catchiness of Williams' themes may deceive the listener not to look for more subtle qualities of his music, although they are definitely there. It took me years to discover that the fugato of his "Belly of the Steel Beast" from LAST CRUSADE is actually based on the film's Nazi theme. Also, counterpoint is an area where Williams excels at, and sometimes he uses it for very intelligent thematic constructions. The Indy/Short Round counterpoint from the end titles of TEMPLE OF DOOM being probably the most obvious.
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Posted: |
Nov 30, 2010 - 11:09 AM
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By: |
Mike West
(Member)
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Gunnar, I agree! I don't know which is more rewarding, for me they are both.
Williams is always very constructive with his themes, trying out intervals, changing a leap here, switching two pitches there, and his themes come out as something he calls inevitable but also capable for contrapunctial manipulation,
there is a lot of contrapunctal texture in Williams work, true.
A good deal of his symphonic settings of his themes are full of canonic treatment, Duel of Fates, Indiana Jones Theme, to mention a few.
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Posted: |
Nov 30, 2010 - 4:49 PM
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By: |
Gunnar
(Member)
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A good deal of his symphonic settings of his themes are full of canonic treatment, Duel of Fates, Indiana Jones Theme, to mention a few.
Yes, very true! This is why I am not at all upset if he rearranges material for the film's soundtrack or even later recordings. The SHARK CAGE FUGUE comes to mind as a piece that reveals its full glory only in its concert version. Still one of my very favourite pieces of his.
Coming back to Desplat's score, I have to say that I am quite fine with the rather short cues on the album. If you simply look at the track lengths, you might be mistaken that there is no room for development in these cues, but I hear the development rather between than within the cues. Also, the flow of the album works wonderfully for me. True, the end comes a bit sudden, but that's the nature of the film's cliffhanger, and I don't consider this composition complete until the next part is finished, anyway. Another reason why it's good that Desplat will return.
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Posted: |
Dec 1, 2010 - 2:17 PM
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By: |
Gunnar
(Member)
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The arrangement of Star of Bethlehem from Home Alone also has some beautiful contrapunctal writing in the end, similar to the orchestral cresc. in the finale of the shark cage fugue concert arrangement.
Oh, definitely! I didn't mention it here because it is not a fugue, but when it comes to counterpoint with an awesome emotional impact, it doesn't get much better than "Star of Bethlehem"!
I don't know if there is really not the opportunity or if he does not want to write stuff like that.
I would very much enjoy to hear a new "strict" fugue in the same mode as the shark cage was, I like it very very much.
Count me very much in on that wish! I heard that fugue recently in a concert with the LSO, and even after listening to it on CD for so many times, it still blew me away! It would be truly awesome to get another fugue of that class.
As for the question whether it is the lack of opportunity or a dislike - I cannot imagine someone writing e.g. the Shark Cage Fugue without wanting it! There would have been much easier ways to create tension than the highly complex construction of a fugue. I think you really need a film sequence without much dialogue and a certain kinetic tension, paired with a dramatic build-up, to successfully play a fugue against it. If the film sequence doesn't live up to the complexity and increasing drive of a fugue, the result would sound overblown and out of place.
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