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Posted: |
Aug 28, 2010 - 8:54 AM
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By: |
ahem
(Member)
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Everything written below is soley my opinion and nothing else:
Mancini is my favourite composer, always has been. However, what frustrates me very much about Mancini, and TOTALLY unlike everyone from Williams and Goldsmith to even Addison, is that I am not convinced that even the biggest soundtracks fans know his full body of work and even those who hate the pop work but have been introduced and won over by his dramatic scores are still oblivious to his other scores.
I thought when Lifeforce and Nightwish came out there would be a renewed appreciation in Mancini's later dramatic scores like Great Mouse Detective, Condorman and even the straight dramatic later Panther scores. Zilch. I thought we might have had in depth discussion and even maybe cries for an expanded Santa Claus when the rerelease came out next year. I didn't see any here, just pressing complaints.
At the same time, I generally never see any discussion about the dramatic portions of Hank's pop work either, such as the magnificent and visionary for the time use of innovative production on cues like Shot in the Dark's villain theme (which to my ears sounds like the beginning of the kind of production tricks that the likes of Zimmer would continue years later).
In my opinion, there seems to be such a divided fanbase for the various eras of Mancini's career:
You've got the fans of the Universal horrors,
fans of the Silver Age frothy comedies with Mercer songs
fans of the subdued 70s
fans of the Edwards comedies
fans of the 80s dramatic/ straight orchestral scores (most seemingly born in the 80s)
And in my opinion there's next to know crossover. Fans keep to their "sub genre" of Mancini and never know the full body of work. Why?? It's like if there were Goldsmith fans who knew Planet of the Apes but didn't know Innerspace or Hollow Man. It would be unheard of!!
I am not convinced that all of the score die-hards who hold Mancini in high regard have heard and sought out his full body of work from the 50s to the 90s. I think most if not all know him for one career category and haven't sought out his other stuff. I think most love his 50s/60s and some 70s work, and then cut everything after off as irrelevant.
For such a celebrated composer with BOOKS written about him, I just find it frustrating that especially on here he's barely ever discussed and his full body of work to my mind is totally unrepresented on here.
Anyway, this has been on my mind for ages. Years, in fact.
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Posted: |
Aug 28, 2010 - 9:49 AM
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By: |
morrifan
(Member)
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Interesting thread, which makes me think of the following (sorry for the slight digression)
After reading several threads on this forum I realized that no matter how talented you are, you won't be called a great of film scoring until you have recorded at least one big epic/straight/tense/atonal score (as opposed to writing a pop or jazz score which, as I understand it, would be the ABC of composing, right?).
I think it's the other way around: all you need is to complete your curriculum in film scoring/arranging and voila: be part of the 80% of competent/reasonably talented composers currently active and whose oeuvre is discussed here.
Mancini, I believe, had the misfortune to have an extra quality called inspiration (including melodic gift).
I happen to enjoy the Nightwing score, but what I read here, it's scores like this one (and Lifeforce - a great one for me too btw) that do as the ultimate proof of his talent...
I really don't know what to think: this man had scored Peter Gunn, Breakfast, Sunflower, Experiment In Terror, Touch Of Evil and still it took something like Lifeforce to rank him alongside the all-time greats ?
I know that Mancini himself complained that he wasn't given enough opportunities to write big, classic scores: I don't think he was complaining because he dismissed his "regular" melodic work as sub-par but because he was aware that you aren't considered a great until you've written your big straight/orchestral one.
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I've never thought of Mancini in this "one period vs. another period" way myself.
All I can theorize, as to what makes him different from other composers in this regard, is the way his recordings of his own and other composers music (and the way those albums were marketed) created a sort of public image for him, or "household name" celebrity status that may have thrown critical appreciation of his music out of whack a little.
You could say the same about Williams, during his years with the Boston Pops, I guess, and there are probably other examples as well.
I must say, though, that my first reaction to your post was a little bit of distaste for this "unloading a pet peeve" kind of thing. Why do people at this board have to present their ideas as complaints anyway, in this negative-sounding language, seemingly just to be noticed, or to lend their ideas some emphasis.
I challenge you to rewrite your initial post above without using a single bit of negative verbiage, and see if you still have just as much to say about Mancini. I dare you. 
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Maybe Mancini isn't known that much for his scoring work, but he has a lot of fans of his easy listening stuff. That isn't so bad. I'm sure the pink panther theme and moon river will outlive us all. Many high regarded composers wont manage this.
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Posted: |
Aug 28, 2010 - 11:12 AM
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By: |
Morricone
(Member)
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I will have to disagree. Having followed Mancini's career and even had a conversation at the Dorothy Chandler Pavillion with him, I do not think he felt the work he had done was underrated. After all at certain points in his career he WAS the most famous film composer around. And it is not that a score like LIFEFORCE is better than other types. It is just I have never met a human being who does not get bored with doing one thing all his life. It is human to grow and expand and explore new areas of endeavor. This goes double for artists. This is why people like Jerry Goldsmith and Ennio Morricone are my kings, they pretty much never had such permanent shackles on them. For Mancini his melodic scores were connected with his big money makers and this was deadly. Nothing else was acceptable to Hollywood. The pigeonholing stuck and he couldn't move.
And yet I think about the guts of one composer that broke all rules. Elmer Bernstein came out as a boy wonder and was immediately black listed. Yet through pure determination he works for Cecil B. Demille, the blacklist king, within a couple of years. Even though he was THE jazz composer for quite awhile because of THE MAN WITH THE GOLDEN ARM his TEN COMMANDMENTS score enabled him to stretch symphonically at the same time. THE MAGNIFICENT SEVEN not just made him THE western score composer, it trapped him like Mancini. He actually had the guts to say no more westerns to the consternation of his agent, his fans and everybody else. He then had an additional stereotype later as THE comedy composer, but it was easier the second time to say no more with GHOSTBUSTERS 2. Despite the lost of jobs and a LOT of money, he had been in the same boat before and "for the sake of his own sanity" he had to do it again, there would be no more comedies.
I don't know what type of temperament or character it takes to do such things but whatever it takes Mancini didn't have it. Or they made it much harder for him to do it. All I know is it was a big frustration in his life and I wish he could have worked it out "for his own sanity".
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Posted: |
Aug 28, 2010 - 11:31 AM
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By: |
OnyaBirri
(Member)
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I largely agree with the original poster.
Mancini led successful dual careers scoring films and making easy listening albums. He may be the only soundtrack composer to successfully pull this off, attaining household name status in the process. Mancini is somewhat to blame for the way he is perceived, because he generally took a very conservative approach with his so-called "soundtrack" albums. Then again, he helped to create the market for soundtracks that exists today, so maybe that was a good thing.
Mancini got VERY schlocky in the 1970s. There were a few gems, like "Symphonic Soul" and "The Cop Show Themes," but most of those albums were unlistenable. It would have been interesting if Mancini had taken a cue from Herrmann, Rozsa and Gerhardt and recorded some albums with film score suites that encompassed the dramatic/moody/scary music from his films. He did that at least once with his monsters CD, but that is the only example that I can think of.
Mancini probably could not have envisioned how he would be perceived in retrospect, or that anyone would care about these details decades later. That said, most of his 60s albums are generally solid, many have remained in print, and at least a few of the films he scored are remembered. He wrote at least two standards, if not more, made a good living, and had a wine cellar.
I'm sure lots of film composers that we admire would have traded places with him.
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Posted: |
Aug 28, 2010 - 1:27 PM
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By: |
ahem
(Member)
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Nothing else was acceptable to Hollywood. The pigeonholing stuck and he couldn't move.
Except he was in demand throughout the late 70s and 80s scoring films as diverse as Condorman, Great Mouse detective, Lifeforce, Santa Claus, Harry and Son, Glass Menagerie, Without a Clue, Mommie Dearest, Nightwing, The Prisoner of Zenda and Ghost Dad. Very chamelonic and show incredible range, in addition to the Edwards comedies. I think he seemed to be busier or at least as busy as Rosenman, Legrand or Shire, in my opinion, and mostly out of the "light-pop" arena. I think scores like Mouse Detective, Santa and Lifeforce are as good as say Shire's Return to Oz, Broughton's Young Sherlock or Goldsmith's Innerspace, or any other underrated great score of the 80s. I bet so many on here would have a field day with these Hank scores if they knew they existed. Yet Mancini's stuff doesn't seem in my opinion to get the same attention, as though he died when the sixties ended, or something.
Holmes,
I accept your challenge.
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Holmes,
I accept your challenge.
I do think it's great when a board member takes up the flag for a certain neglected composer he/she's wild about.
We all know Henry loves Conti, DMD loves Horner. Maybe you could become that Mancini guy.
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I think you're right Ahem in suggesting Mancini doesn't get as much respect because he tended to write "accessible" rather than "challenging" music. Another reason people don't exalt Mancini as highly as others is because he didn't score the types of film they grew up on -- sci-fi and fantasy, action, Bond movies, etc.
Most teenagers weren't allowed to see movies like 10, and had no interest in Victor Victoria, Mommy Dearest or The Thornbirds. They went to see Planet Of The Apes, Star Wars, Star Trek movies, Alien movies, etc. hence the following for Williams, Goldsmith, Horner, etc. Mancini for the most part didn't do those types of films. (In much the same way, Maurice Jarre was not a fan favorite -- until he did Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome and Enemy Mine.) I'm not knocking Mancini at all -- I consider him one of the greatest -- but he tended to score more "adult" types of films which young people who were forming their tastes simply didn't go to see. I wish he HAD done a Star Trek movie or a Bond film! That would have been awesome!
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Posted: |
Aug 28, 2010 - 2:21 PM
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By: |
ahem
(Member)
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Like I said though, in the 80s he did score those types of films, and I think like me there is a generation out there who got into him that way as children growing up in that decade (although I grew up watching Edwards movies too, thankfully).
I also think most of the films themselves were as good (and in Mouse Detective's case better) than a lot of the genre/blockbuster movies that Goldsmith and co were scoring so memorably. Spacecamp, King Solomon's Mines, Temple of Doom, Young Sherlock, Return to Oz, Baby, Supergirl, Superman IV, Warlock, Leviathan, Rambo III, Link, Legend etc are I think films for which many cite the score as being superior the film, and they get huge attention, but I never see the same for Santa Claus, Condorman or Lifeforce (I think all of which received similar box office/critical success). Mancini was there, relevant and making music that fit the genre to perfection.
My point is that I think with a Leviathan or Supergirl, you will have Goldsmith fans aged twenty to eighty (or beyond) discussing or praising the many merits of the music, regardless of the quality of the film, yet a Santa or Great Mouse Detective, I think you'll only hear from those who saw the film at the cinema as children.
You can't tell me that Mancini's later work is somewhat snubbed with a reaction like that (IMO).
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Posted: |
Aug 28, 2010 - 2:23 PM
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By: |
MMM
(Member)
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"In my opinion, there seems to be such a divided fanbase for the various eras of Mancini's career... And in my opinion there's next to know crossover."
That's simply not true. Just because certain people on this site complain about not getting certain soundtracks doesn't make them representative of Mancini fans overall. And there have been many in-depth discussions about Mancini's music elsewhere -- just not on this site. This site is, for the most part, about acquiring soundtracks. There were plenty of older film music magazines like "Soundtrack!" and "Cinemascore" that went into musical detail about certain composers and scores. And you can find lots of books about that as well. And, while I don't subscribe to the FSM magazine, something tells me they cover a lot of this ground, too. In my experience, most internet forums are NOT about getting in-depth ANYTHING. That doesn't mean they aren't useful for other purposes, but generally not for in-depth analyses, as that's not why the majority of people go to such boards.
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Posted: |
Aug 30, 2010 - 11:29 AM
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By: |
ahem
(Member)
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This site is, for the most part, about acquiring soundtracks. .
Oh God, I hope it hasn't been reduced to that. That would be a sad day indeed.
For the record, I don't think Mancini is particularly underrated or under-discussed here. There are many threads on all facets of his output, and most of them seem to be quite active (with long responses), like this one. Not as much as Goldsmith, obviously, but then again no other composer gets that much attention around here.
I think you be missing the point (completely), Thor.
CROSSOVER and consistency- If it;s Breakfast at Tiffany's you'll have half the forum reading, but if it's Great Mouse Detective, I think you are looking at a handful of people born around 1981.
Goldsmith?
I think you get the exact same fans reading and posting in the threads about Agony and the Ecstacy Apes as you do in the ones about Looney Tunes or Innerspace.
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