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 Posted:   Nov 30, 2017 - 2:27 PM   
 By:   Mr. Marshall   (Member)

On the DAD discussion more than one person slammed DN as the "worst" Bond score.

I beg to differ - in part.

The calypso music that Norman composed and arranged is fantastic:
"Three Blind Mice"
"Jamaica Jump Up"
"Underneath The Mango Tree"

These are wonderful compositions!
Even some of the non-film tracks like "Twistin' With James" are very appealing.
And of course "The James Bond Theme".

If you go only by the underscore, I guess the low rating is justified.
But, take some time to enjoy the songs.For some reason, they are never included on the compilation albums of Bond songs. Truly disgraceful.
bruce

 
 Posted:   Nov 30, 2017 - 2:49 PM   
 By:   other tallguy   (Member)

On the DAD discussion more than one person slammed DN as the "worst" Bond score.

I beg to differ - in part.

The calypso music that Norman composed and arranged is fantastic:
"Three Blind Mice"
"Jamaica Jump Up"
"Underneath The Mango Tree"

These are wonderful compositions!
Even some of the non-film tracks like "Twistin' With James" are very appealing.
And of course "The James Bond Theme".

If you go only by the underscore, I guess the low rating is justified.
But, take some time to enjoy the songs.For some reason, they are never included on the compilation albums of Bond songs. Truly disgraceful.
bruce


Well, just because something is the worst doesn't make it bad. Toy Story 2 is the worst Toy Story movie. And it's pretty fantastic.

And yes, the James Bond Theme alone (whoever gets credit for it) should put it higher than at least ONE other thing.

All of the Barry scores are at least good as are the Arnolds. And I like most of the scores that get panned. Goldeneye is one of my favorites. The only reason I'd downgrade SPECTRE is because it's a retread of Skyfall. But I like Skyfall. A lot of For Your Eyes Only is pretty fantastic. (Some of it... Isn't.) I like The Spy Who Loved Me.

And George Martin was a genius.

I think that covers it?

 
 
 Posted:   Nov 30, 2017 - 4:57 PM   
 By:   OnyaBirri   (Member)

And of course "The James Bond Theme".

Well, there's that.

But, take some time to enjoy the songs.For some reason, they are never included on the compilation albums of Bond songs.

They are on some of the early comps and even some of the early knock-offs, like the Roland Shaw albums. And I skip them on those, too. wink

 
 
 Posted:   Nov 30, 2017 - 7:25 PM   
 By:   stanatstationnj   (Member)

On the DAD discussion more than one person slammed DN as the "worst" Bond score.

I beg to differ - in part.

The calypso music that Norman composed and arranged is fantastic:
"Three Blind Mice"
"Jamaica Jump Up"
"Underneath The Mango Tree"

These are wonderful compositions!
Even some of the non-film tracks like "Twistin' With James" are very appealing.
And of course "The James Bond Theme".

If you go only by the underscore, I guess the low rating is justified.
But, take some time to enjoy the songs.For some reason, they are never included on the compilation albums of Bond songs. Truly disgraceful.
bruce


Methinks you jest with us.
When listening to Norman's "music," the phrase 'turgid" comes to mind.
At the time, one has the sense the songs were lifted from ideas prevalent locally in Jamaica.
It still amazes me that anyone can believe Norman wrote the Bond theme.
There may have been some limited phrasing but, otherwise it is unquestionably Barry's creation.
Compare it to Beat Girl, Beat for Beatnicks or Bea's Knees.
Of course, Norman was never invited back. And, he never used the break and be bop section in his recent recording of the Bond theme
I wonder why?

Stan

 
 Posted:   Dec 1, 2017 - 3:02 AM   
 By:   WILLIAMDMCCRUM   (Member)


At the time, one has the sense the songs were lifted from ideas prevalent locally in Jamaica.


You don't say. Imagine a fella writing a musical set in Jamaica, using Jamaican modes and cultural ideas. Whoever heard of such a thing? Actually Mr. Biswas was Indian.


It still amazes me that anyone can believe Norman wrote the Bond theme.
There may have been some limited phrasing but, otherwise it is unquestionably Barry's creation.


You're confusing entirely the elements of melodic composition and arrangement/orchestration and extension/development.

Unless Norman categorically stole the original song tune, or homaged it, it's HIS. Without that tune Barry would've had to use a different departure point. You can argue as much as you like about Barry's builds, but he used Norman's tune. You can claim that the essence of the piece is its arrangement, but the tune is Norman's.

People with musical background can separate the elements of a piece without being seduced by the final outcome. Just because you don't as a listener get orgasms from a cold melodic line undeveloped is irrelevant. This one element is Norman's. And deserves recognition.

 
 Posted:   Dec 1, 2017 - 3:12 AM   
 By:   WILLIAMDMCCRUM   (Member)

You fellas act as though Barry's midB section was some divine innovation. Had it not been stuck on a James Bond flick, you'd see it as good but routine light mock jazz development of the kind Geoff Love or Mancini or literally 1,000 others were doing. You're working backwards from the icon.

Put yourself in Norman's shoes. Barry didn't replace him so much as Bert Rhodes. Poor Bert gets no credit!

 
 Posted:   Dec 1, 2017 - 3:45 AM   
 By:   WILLIAMDMCCRUM   (Member)

Norman's then wife, Diana Coupland, became a very famous UK TV actress throughout the 1970s. She sang 'Mango Tree' on the OST.:

 
 Posted:   Dec 1, 2017 - 3:49 AM   
 By:   MusicMad   (Member)

Actually Mr. Biswas was Indian … I may be missing the point you’re making but I presume you are aware that the story re: Mr. Biswas, is set in Trinidad … hence the Jamaican link is not too far fetched (then again: Jamaica and Trinidad may be as close as Britian is to France culturally!)

Anyhow, re: the James Bond Theme … a favourite of mine for most of my life … I have no musical knowledge and stand aside for those who can understand and analyse the technical aspects of music. But I am certain that:

- Monty Norman has the legal writing credit for this melody; and
- This tune we know (and love) – now 55+ years old – would not exist if it wasn’t for Monty Norman; and
- This tune we know (and love) – now 55+ years old – would not exist if it wasn’t for John Barry … though aspects of it would exist in aforementioned compositions by this Maestro

As for the score, returning to the OP’s question: I think, at the time, it was perfectly acceptable and has been derided somewhat with the passage of time and, in particular, the scores – both JB007 and others – which followed. Without the James Bond Theme it would be a long forgotten score but with the visuals, for me, the songs do work.

As a stand-alone listen, I find it a pleasant album but, strip away the opening track, it is the added (non film-score) tunes which make it so. With only two proper underscore tracks – both of which are good – I don’t think we can consider it a true representation of the film score. Listen to the Nic Raine/CoPP 1999 re-recording of the additional underscore (on the album Bond Back In Action) to hear more of the score.

Apart from the iconic theme this score is as different from the last two efforts (and others) as the proverbial chalk and cheese and as such are not comparable … but I’m 100% glad that Monty Norman’s (+ others’) score to Dr. No (1962) exists … I can’t say the same for Thomas Newman’s (+ others’) scores to Skyfall (2012) and Spectre (2015)

Mitch

 
 Posted:   Dec 1, 2017 - 3:59 AM   
 By:   ZapBrannigan   (Member)

They are on some of the early comps and even some of the early knock-offs, like the Roland Shaw albums. And I skip them on those, too. wink


The Roland Shaw albums are the best early-Bond covers. And his coverage is both broad and deep. I love the fact that he covered two songs from CASINO ROYALE, providing us with our only version of "Let the Love Come Through." And it's a great version!

 
 Posted:   Dec 1, 2017 - 4:00 AM   
 By:   WILLIAMDMCCRUM   (Member)

Actually Mr. Biswas was Indian … I may be missing the point you’re making but I presume you are aware that the story re: Mr. Biswas, is set in Trinidad … hence the Jamaican link is not too far fetched (then again: Jamaica and Trinidad may be as close as Britian is to France culturally!)





Mr. Biswas was an Indian immigrant. My point is that Norman's contribution needn't be denigrated on the basis of its cultural appropriateness to the setting!

There was a tradition in poetry from S. and Central America generally that ran along the lines of, 'The day I was born, God vomited'. The song was in that tradition. Mr. Biswas was displaced. It was used here as melody, not lyric, but the nihilistic idea isn't far from Bond and the Dr. No villain in a way.

I had a friend called Biswas. Ugandan Asian. He's now a Finnish architect.

 
 Posted:   Dec 1, 2017 - 4:00 AM   
 By:   MusicMad   (Member)

On the matter of the James Bond Theme its origin may pre-date Mr. Norman and perhaps credit should be given to Jean Sibelius!

An album I purchased earlier this year makes this claim (possibly tongue-in-cheek) for one of his compositions:
Cassazione, Op.6 (first version - 1904) - see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cassazione_(Sibelius)

Remarkably similar opening smile

Mitch

 
 Posted:   Dec 1, 2017 - 4:13 AM   
 By:   WILLIAMDMCCRUM   (Member)

You mean this:



Good to set cats among the pigeons.

 
 
 Posted:   Dec 1, 2017 - 4:36 AM   
 By:   OnyaBirri   (Member)

You're confusing entirely the elements of melodic composition and arrangement/orchestration and extension/development.

Unless Norman categorically stole the original song tune, or homaged it, it's HIS. Without that tune Barry would've had to use a different departure point. You can argue as much as you like about Barry's builds, but he used Norman's tune. You can claim that the essence of the piece is its arrangement, but the tune is Norman's.

People with musical background can separate the elements of a piece without being seduced by the final outcome. Just because you don't as a listener get orgasms from a cold melodic line undeveloped is irrelevant. This one element is Norman's. And deserves recognition.


I am one of those people with a musical background, and I have worked in the roles of both composer and arranger, and I can attest that a grey area exists between composition and orchestration/arrangement, especially in situations in which there is not much of a composition for the arranger to latch onto.

At any rate, we know who got the gig and who did not.

 
 Posted:   Dec 2, 2017 - 1:23 AM   
 By:   WILLIAMDMCCRUM   (Member)



At any rate, we know who got the gig and who did not.



But that's not actually relevant. Especially given that no-one expected it to result in even a sequel. Melody is the issue in a court of law.


 
 Posted:   Dec 2, 2017 - 1:39 AM   
 By:   MusicMad   (Member)



At any rate, we know who got the gig and who did not.



But that's not actually relevant. Especially given that no-one expected it to result in even a sequel. ...


Ah, that is where the facts provide a different story. Messrs. Broccoli and Saltzman secured a multi-picture (I think it was 5) deal with United Artists so, whilst I imagine UA had the right to pull the plug if the producers failed to meet set criteria, etc. there was always going to be a second, etc.

Perhaps less certain (i.e. factual) is testimony that John Barry was placated by the offer of being engaged to provide the music score to the second film when he complained that, contrary to his agreement for his work on Dr. No, his arrangement ~ re-orchestration ~ re-writing of the James Bond Theme - that it was to be the title music only - that piece of music was used extensively throughout the film.

Having read numerous publications about the JB007 films I have yet to find any suggestion that Monty Norman was considered for a second time (his engagement on the producers' non-JB007 film, Call Me Bwana (1963) probably pre-dated the release of Dr. No). I think it also telling that Mr. Norman's involvement in the circus that the JB007 franchise became in the 1960s appears ... nil (or perhaps simply not reported) ... strange given his significant contribution to the cinematic JB007. smile

Mitch

 
 Posted:   Dec 2, 2017 - 3:00 AM   
 By:   WILLIAMDMCCRUM   (Member)



Easy to follow instructions, mostly two fingers, from a blowark oop Noath like:

'Me names Bond, Jeeames Bond, like, an' ah like me mahtinis sheeekan, boot na stuwahd, y'kna?'.

'Nah Mr. Bond ... Ah expects yez ta kick ya booket, man!'

 
 Posted:   Dec 2, 2017 - 3:23 AM   
 By:   WILLIAMDMCCRUM   (Member)

 
 
 Posted:   Dec 2, 2017 - 4:39 AM   
 By:   OnyaBirri   (Member)

But that's not actually relevant. Especially given that no-one expected it to result in even a sequel. Melody is the issue in a court of law.

I am one of those people with a musical background, and I have worked in the roles of both composer and arranger, and I can attest that a grey area exists between composition and orchestration/arrangement, especially in situations in which there is not much of a composition for the arranger to latch onto.

 
 Posted:   Dec 2, 2017 - 5:04 AM   
 By:   WILLIAMDMCCRUM   (Member)

Déjà vu, Onya?

 
 
 Posted:   Dec 2, 2017 - 8:24 AM   
 By:   OnyaBirri   (Member)

Déjà vu, Onya?

You responded to one part of my post and not the other. So, again, I am one of those people with a musical background, and I have worked in the roles of both composer and arranger, and I can attest that a grey area exists between composition and orchestration/arrangement, especially in situations in which there is not much of a composition for the arranger to latch onto.

 
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