Film Score Monthly
FSM HOME MESSAGE BOARD FSM CDs FSM ONLINE RESOURCES FUN STUFF ABOUT US  SEARCH FSM   
Search Terms: 
Search Within:   search tips 
You must log in or register to post.
  Go to page:    
 Posted:   Mar 15, 2017 - 8:48 PM   
 By:   T.J. Turner   (Member)


Starship Troopers is not at all brickwalled. Pat Sullivan is a very competent mastering engineer and it's not her style to just pump everything up. Mastering is an art. However, it does look like there is some compression applied. What's amusing (maybe even ironic) to me is that it's about the same amount of compression applied to the Hollywood Records issue of ROCKETEER. It makes me wonder if the Hollywood Rocketeer had no compression, but we applied it to our release, would people be complaining that it sounded "brickwalled" and talk about how much they miss the natural dynamic range of the original release rather than complaining that ours lacks "oomph"?


I'm not likely to complain because Intrada is doing the best job at remastering their scores. I can't think of a bad example. So if your scenario were true, I'm confident your use of compression would be skillfully done, and not draw attention to itself. Unfortunately there are some bad examples from the other labels.

But I have a question. Since you said that mastering is an art, why isn't it respected when a score is reissued?

 
 
 Posted:   Mar 15, 2017 - 8:59 PM   
 By:   .   (Member)

All the George Korngold / Utah CDs I have still sound excellent, despite being early digital releases. Black Cauldron, Sea Hawk, Robin Hood, the Alfred Hitchcock album... and several more. Unlike so many releases where one hopes for a better remaster at some point, I think of these as being just the way I want them, with nothing clever needing to be done to any of them.

 
 
 Posted:   Mar 16, 2017 - 12:01 AM   
 By:   1977   (Member)

Starship Troopers is not at all brickwalled. Pat Sullivan is a very competent mastering engineer and it's not her style to just pump everything up. Mastering is an art. However, it does look like there is some compression applied. What's amusing (maybe even ironic) to me is that it's about the same amount of compression applied to the Hollywood Records issue of ROCKETEER. It makes me wonder if the Hollywood Rocketeer had no compression, but we applied it to our release, would people be complaining that it sounded "brickwalled" and talk about how much they miss the natural dynamic range of the original release rather than complaining that ours lacks "oomph"?

I haven't listened to the Rocketeer samples so I can't comment, but I'll defer to your expertise in this regard, Roger.

The Black Cauldron samples sound perfectly fine to my ears so I'm thrilled to be able to finally pick this wonderful recording up (again) after all these years.

 
 Posted:   Mar 16, 2017 - 1:13 AM   
 By:   jurassicmarc   (Member)


But I have a question. Since you said that mastering is an art, why isn't it respected when a score is reissued?


I think it's all about market trends. The rise of brickwalling coincides with the introduction of MP3 players and now continues on to the present day where a lot of music is heard through headphones. For a headphone experience, you'd want a more balanced/even mix so your ears don't get blasted by loud parts if you were adjusting for the quieter parts (dynamics).

This is why a lot of popular music now lacks dynamics because the earbuds/headphones are the popular venue for music to be played. It's less about the art then and more about the intended venue.

 
 Posted:   Mar 16, 2017 - 8:40 AM   
 By:   T.J. Turner   (Member)


But I have a question. Since you said that mastering is an art, why isn't it respected when a score is reissued?


I think it's all about market trends. The rise of brickwalling coincides with the introduction of MP3 players and now continues on to the present day where a lot of music is heard through headphones. For a headphone experience, you'd want a more balanced/even mix so your ears don't get blasted by loud parts if you were adjusting for the quieter parts (dynamics).

This is why a lot of popular music now lacks dynamics because the earbuds/headphones are the popular venue for music to be played. It's less about the art then and more about the intended venue.


As someone sitting within arms reach of 7 pairs of headphones, I'll have to disagree and say that it's the headphones that make the problem more obvious. They only magnify all the negative effects of brickwalling. The fatigue of the ear drums from the intense loudness, the harshness of the treble, and the distortion in the mids and bass, narrowing of the sound stage.
Excessive dynamic compression existed before MP3 players. I remember in the 90s criticisms about the box sets of 60s and 70s music that Time Life Magazine released for being overly compressed to the point of distortion. It was a problem regular in rock and pop music. We didn't have to worry about film scores until about 10-12 years ago.

 
 Posted:   Mar 22, 2017 - 11:20 AM   
 By:   Lewis&Clark   (Member)

Ok. Love this score so much, so I got the new disc today. I don't know if this new edition is brickwalled but the first second sound like mastered very hot. The typical strange "noise" with hot mastering is very evident. I haven't listend to the whole disc yet but it's not a step forward sonically compared to the regular edition. It's also evident at second 0:40, where the BOOM of the bass drum is enhanced in way that doesn't sound "naturally symphonic" (for lack of a better description).
Generally, everything sounds louder and more aggressive - but that doesn't equal better.
So to answer my own question earlier in the thread: owners of the old edition need not apply frown

 
 
 Posted:   Mar 22, 2017 - 2:40 PM   
 By:   leagolfer   (Member)

Its a nice release & well done, but I own 2 copies already, the original Varese & the later Intrada, This will sell out quickly though.

 
 Posted:   Mar 22, 2017 - 10:45 PM   
 By:   T.J. Turner   (Member)

Ok. Love this score so much, so I got the new disc today. I don't know if this new edition is brickwalled but the first second sound like mastered very hot. The typical strange "noise" with hot mastering is very evident. I haven't listend to the whole disc yet but it's not a step forward sonically compared to the regular edition. It's also evident at second 0:40, where the BOOM of the bass drum is enhanced in way that doesn't sound "naturally symphonic" (for lack of a better description).
Generally, everything sounds louder and more aggressive - but that doesn't equal better.
So to answer my own question earlier in the thread: owners of the old edition need not apply frown


No it's not brickwalled, its sounds fine. I've never heard the score before this release. I enjoyed it quite a bit!

 
 Posted:   Mar 28, 2017 - 12:30 AM   
 By:   Lokutus   (Member)

Are the clicks new addition or they were part of the original album as well?

 
 
 Posted:   Mar 28, 2017 - 12:37 AM   
 By:   Bob DiMucci   (Member)

Are the clicks new addition or they were part of the original album as well?


Don't be coy. Let us know where they are.

 
 Posted:   Mar 28, 2017 - 12:39 AM   
 By:   Lokutus   (Member)

ok... at least few far too evident examples (+ several smaller ones):

track 8: 2:30, 2:40
track 9: 2:07

 
 Posted:   Mar 28, 2017 - 2:28 AM   
 By:   Nicolai P. Zwar   (Member)


As someone sitting within arms reach of 7 pairs of headphones, I'll have to disagree and say that it's the headphones that make the problem more obvious. They only magnify all the negative effects of brickwalling. The fatigue of the ear drums from the intense loudness, the harshness of the treble, and the distortion in the mids and bass, narrowing of the sound stage.


Absolutely agree. When I listen with a pair of Sony MDR-1A, any unfortunate mastering decisions such as brickwalling become much, much more unpleasantly noticeable than when you listen to the stuff in your car.

Also, I don't know anyone who seriously prefers brickwalled orchestral music, no serious voice I have ever heard or read on this matter preferes brickwalled orchestral music to a more natural dynamic range. So why is it even done? Of course, at times it is a matter of degree and therefore open to preference.

 
 Posted:   Mar 28, 2017 - 11:08 AM   
 By:   Lewis&Clark   (Member)

ok... at least few far too evident examples (+ several smaller ones):

track 8: 2:30, 2:40
track 9: 2:07


IF I'm hearing the same clicks as you, then they are on the original album but not as "evident".
But I'm more concerned about the nasty noise in the first second of the first track.

 
 Posted:   Mar 28, 2017 - 6:42 PM   
 By:   David Colvin   (Member)

i noticed the same thing as well on Cauldron though after listening to the first pressing on CD and then listening to the new one I don't hear these sounds on the original one. i do hear a lot of nonsense in track 8 all the way through it and track 9 like loktus mentioned. under siege sounds sublime and stanley only has one or two issues on i think track 10 around 30 seconds or 40 seconds. all my music is listened to with headphones as to not to wake my neighbors, wife and kid. i can't say if the stanley issue is on the original as this track 10 was not on the original. Other than these small issues I guess these are really great release and i'm glad I have them all.

 
 Posted:   Mar 29, 2017 - 2:33 AM   
 By:   Ny   (Member)


As someone sitting within arms reach of 7 pairs of headphones, I'll have to disagree and say that it's the headphones that make the problem more obvious. They only magnify all the negative effects of brickwalling. The fatigue of the ear drums from the intense loudness, the harshness of the treble, and the distortion in the mids and bass, narrowing of the sound stage.


Absolutely agree. When I listen with a pair of Sony MDR-1A, any unfortunate mastering decisions such as brickwalling become much, much more unpleasantly noticeable than when you listen to the stuff in your car.

Also, I don't know anyone who seriously prefers brickwalled orchestral music, no serious voice I have ever heard or read on this matter preferes brickwalled orchestral music to a more natural dynamic range. So why is it even done? Of course, at times it is a matter of degree and therefore open to preference.



wasn't the original poster talking about earbuds on an iphone as the intended venue? As in... outside, walking around, amid traffic noise. the common way to listen. brickwalling does help with that, quieter passages can actually be heard.

 
 Posted:   Mar 29, 2017 - 9:40 PM   
 By:   T.J. Turner   (Member)


As someone sitting within arms reach of 7 pairs of headphones, I'll have to disagree and say that it's the headphones that make the problem more obvious. They only magnify all the negative effects of brickwalling. The fatigue of the ear drums from the intense loudness, the harshness of the treble, and the distortion in the mids and bass, narrowing of the sound stage.


Absolutely agree. When I listen with a pair of Sony MDR-1A, any unfortunate mastering decisions such as brickwalling become much, much more unpleasantly noticeable than when you listen to the stuff in your car.

Also, I don't know anyone who seriously prefers brickwalled orchestral music, no serious voice I have ever heard or read on this matter preferes brickwalled orchestral music to a more natural dynamic range. So why is it even done? Of course, at times it is a matter of degree and therefore open to preference.



wasn't the original poster talking about earbuds on an iphone as the intended venue? As in... outside, walking around, amid traffic noise. the common way to listen. brickwalling does help with that, quieter passages can actually be heard.



He mentioned headphones. But it doesn't matter since quality earbuds can be analytical as well.
There is a benefit to dynamic compression in certain circumstances, but never for brickwalling. Keep in mind you can still listen to you're music outside, just get a dap with a good amp, and turn the volume up. The integrity of the recorded music doesn't have to change.

 
 
 Posted:   Mar 29, 2017 - 10:06 PM   
 By:   .   (Member)

With my original release, I hear no clicks or problems at the timings mentioned above.

 
 Posted:   Mar 30, 2017 - 12:12 AM   
 By:   Ny   (Member)

Keep in mind you can still listen to you're music outside, just get a dap with a good amp, and turn the volume up.


the average person is never going to do that, which is what he was talking about - production geared towards the average person. feel free to read his post again.

 
You must log in or register to post.
  Go to page:    
© 2024 Film Score Monthly. All Rights Reserved.
Website maintained and powered by Veraprise and Matrimont.