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Posted: |
Feb 12, 2017 - 9:44 AM
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By: |
OnyaBirri
(Member)
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I thought about answering, Onya - until I realised that I didn't quite understand the question. You start by telling us that the interpretation of the term "kitsch" has changed over time, and you give us a few indications of what it isn't. But you'll have to tell me first what it actually is, or what it is at least for you.
It is admittedly a complicated question, as Heath has pointed out, with shifting notions of "taste."
Anyone interested in historical definitions of kitsch should read this book, which is available for reasonable prices on the second-hand market. It is a collection of academic articles on kitsch. The authors don't always agree, and if memory serves, they don't even address music in any in-depth fashion.
https://www.amazon.com/Kitsch-World-Taste-Gillo-Dorfles/dp/B000J41K0G/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1486917668&sr=8-3&keywords=kitsch+the+art+of+bad+taste
If we use some of the historical definitions of kitsch, you could make a strong case - like him or not - that Spielberg is a primary purveyor of kitsch in cinema.
But at the same time, I acknowledge that the old definition has been challenged rather than reinforced, especially as artists have deliberately incorporated elements of kitsch in their "serious" art.
So I am simply asking the questions, and not pretending to have answers.
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Posted: |
Feb 12, 2017 - 10:00 AM
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By: |
RoryR
(Member)
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I thought about answering, Onya - until I realized that I didn't quite understand the question. You start by telling us that the interpretation of the term "kitsch" has changed over time, and you give us a few indications of what it isn't. But you'll have to tell me first what it actually is, or what it is at least for you.
I just read the first post and was about to say the same thing: Well, then, what is your definition of "Kitsch"?
When you write this:
"The word is rife with class and cultural connotations that, by today's standards, are at odds with contemporary concepts of pluralistic and diverse democratic societies."
and
"The classic definition of kitsch has in many ways become obsolete as a result of postmodernism and the no-brow philosophy."
Personally, my first thought reading that is "bullshit," but at best I'd say "highly debatable that, my friend."
I can only entertain your question with a traditional definition of the word "kitsch." For that, I go to my now forty-year-old, 1930-page Funk&Wagnalls dictionary:
"kitsch (kich) n. Art or literary works, etc., having broad popular appeal and little aesthetic merit."
If you think we should be talking about a definition of kitsch more recent, then all I can do is go to Goggle, type in "kitsch meaning," and this is what pops up:
"Kitsch is art that's garish, nostalgic, and very low-brow. Some people who love the aesthetics of souvenir culture think kitsch is really cool, while others think it's in very poor taste. Kitsch is a German word that's been adopted into English, meaning "worthless, trashy art," or the quality of that art."
OK, for me working from those definitions then, what scores to the films that I know are worthless, trashy, garish, low-brow or have little aesthetic merit?
I can't think of one!
Nostalgic? Off the top of my head, I'd say Goldsmith's "Chinatown" score is nostalgic, but kitsch? Generously, I'd say maybe to a degree, but only a very slight degree. Certainly not to the extent of it being low-brow, and so there I'd have to say, no, it's not kitsch.
Another score that comes to mind is Neal Hefti's score to "Duel at Diablo." One cue in particular, which I don't know the name of but it covers the march of an Indian (or as we say now "Native American") tribe, has always sounded to me rather anachronistic at best and perhaps kitsch at worst. But would I say overall his score is without aesthetic merit? In fact, I think it's fairly good.
So, I just don't have a good example of a score that's truly, by the broadest most generous definition possible "kitsch."
But then, I'm not familiar with every score ever written, so I think it quite possible there is a score that's really kitsch, maybe even more than one, but it would have to be some original work for a film on the level of an old porn movie (shot on film) and done by a complete amateur who was utterly cynical in his or her approach to the "art" of film scoring.
(This post was being written as the last two posts were being posted.)
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Posted: |
Feb 12, 2017 - 10:46 AM
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By: |
RoryR
(Member)
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Reach greatly exceeding grasp is certainly one element of kitsch. A similar example would be some of the melodramatic music written for Irwin Allen TV series - music which I LOVE, incidentally - to add drama to some ridiculous on-screen action with Halloween-decoration-quality props.
That's too funny! I just watched the "Land of the Giants" pilot last night and was thinking that exact same thing.
I just got through watch the entire "Lost in Space" series, and yet I wouldn't call it kitsch. If it had aspired to be something on the level of 2001 in the first place, then I could say it turned out as kitsch, but Allen was basically making family entertainment aimed mostly at kids. Lack of serious, high-brow aspirations doesn't alone make for kitsch. Aspiring for something that you intend to be taken seriously, and then have come out as far from that and actually laughable, now that can be called kitsch.
The best movie example of that is I think VALLEY OF THE DOLLS. Some call it camp, but I don't think that's really true. It wasn't made to be campy. It was made to be a serious soap opera about what a terrible thing dreams of making it in Hollywood can turn out to be. That it was done rather badly turned it into kitsch.
Now BEYOND THE VALLEY OF THE DOLLS is most definitely camp -- but not kitsch. It was made to be a spoof, garish and ugly satire, and it succeeded in its aspirations. It's more a comment on what is kitsch.
However, in neither of those movies would I say their scores are kitsch.
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Posted: |
Feb 12, 2017 - 10:56 AM
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By: |
RoryR
(Member)
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They wallow in sentiment.
Did you mean "wallow in sentimentality?" There is a difference. Sentimentality is kitsch; sentiment, not necessarily.
Many of his films have moments that I think, yes, "wallow in sentimentality," at least to my tastes. E.T. is too sentimental, even -- to use an old-fashioned term -- "sappy" for me, as is the approach Peter Jackson took to some of his remake of KING KONG. The scene with Ann Darrow and Kong in Central Park is that movie flirting so dangerously with becoming kitsch that for me made the movie became just that and I hate it. The '76 remake of KONG was even worse. That movie is deliberate kitsch -- King Kong sized kitsch (not camp, though some moments are campy), but again, not its score, which I feel is damn near the only element of that film which has true aesthetic merit and is worth remembering.
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) - thus kitsch arises from the slavish repetition of a portentous but shallow style in a given era.
