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Posted: |
Dec 20, 2016 - 10:00 AM
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By: |
Marisco
(Member)
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Guys,
I am a fan of all 4 Christopher Reeve Superman movies and Supergirl (1984) soundtracks. I am interested in knowing (and collectors may enlighten me about that) how over the years these soundtracks have changed, I mean, how they differ from each other.
First of all, we all know the movie we see in the cinemas is changed everytime it is made available in home video. Sure a Blu-ray offers a better experience than a VHS, but the latter might not be tainted by some modification done to the image and audio.
For example, the movie Dracula (1979):
*******
The 1979 theatrical version looks noticeably different from recent prints. When it was re-issued for a Widescreen Laserdisc release in 1991, the director chose to alter the color timing, desaturating the look of the film.
John Badham had intended to shoot the film in black and white (to mirror the monochrome 1931 film and the stark feel of the Gorey stage production), but Universal objected. Cinematographer Gilbert Taylor was prompted to shoot the movie in warm, "golden" colours, to show off the distinctive production design. The original version has been out of print for over 20 years.
*******
I haven't looked into the VHS version, however the broadcasted one (dubbed and in 4:3 fullscreen) in my country doesn't suffer from this issue. Yet no one in his right mind would prefer this version over the DVD or Blu-ray. One offers something the other hasn't, and neither can be considered the definitive version.
*****
Now, back to what I was going to say...
I noticed Supergirl had a 1993 release from Silva America, which features 23 tracks. This album was modified with the addition of sound effects. Yet no one acknowledges this. Why?
And is it really complete?
For example, examine this one:
18. The Flying Bumper Car (01:28)
In the Silva America release you can hear at 18 seconds this new sound effect, which seems to be missing from the previous release (really, it isn't there).
I am not sure which one was the source I found, it's very likely I am talking about the Varese Sarabande LP from 1984, or the CD which is listed here:
http://www.soundtrackcollector.com/title/2550/Supergirl
That is said to have been released, too.
There's also a CD released in Japan, the Volcano CPC8-1119.
In the back of the Silva release it says that the tracks
2. Main Title & Argo City
16. First Kiss/The Monster Storm (the latter)
Are "different versions than on original CD release". I checked Main Title... and indeed the Silva one has new sound effects when compared to the film version.
There's no mention about the "Flying Bumper Car", though, and like I said it is different.
So here's my question: since the 1993 album is not complete and features some changes, why do people keep praising it and claiming this is the only one fans should buy? Are they just ignorant about the existence of the other or are content with less?
Please note I am not saying the Silva release is bad in any way. Just saying that claiming this is the definitive release is not true.
*****
Now, about Superman... I have the same question: the Rhino album, released in 2000 (from the 1st movie) sounds to me better than the material I can hear in the blue box (8 CD-set, Superman: The Music).
Is it my imagination or the soundtrack was modified for worse? I know the entire album sounds great, my point is that it isn't as great as it was in past releases.
As far as I know, Superman 2 and 3 had few tracks released in LP and in a CD (together). This CD really exists?
I heard the Superman 3 track "The Struggle Within - Finale", which can be found in the 2008 blue box as the track 16 from disc 4, "The Final Victory".
"The Struggle Within - Finale" sounds more faithful to the original stuff than what I can listen from the Film Score Monthly box.
The "The Struggle Within - Finale" I heard was probably from the LP or CD, that's for sure, since it was made available before this 8-CD box was released.
So that means past releases are better than newer ones, and over time they have made some changes and the soundtracks are somehow worse.
*******
One thing I have always questioned myself is why when a movie (or even game, such as Resident Evil (1996), check the album "RE: Soundtrack Remix", track 17, "Mansion: Unexpected Crisis (The Nimble One)", and compare what you hear with the actual game, the moment where the Hunter appears for the 1st time) is released, they always have to modify for worse the entire soundtrack (or some tracks).
Is it the norm?
Even the DVD/Blu-rays from Superman movies sound different than what we heard in the past, another example is the track "2 - Superman to Paris - Lois Climbs Tower" from disc 3 (blue-box), it was never released before, and sounds like the DVDs/Blu-rays.
The thing is, all 3 sources are presenting this scene (where Clark changes into Superman and flies to Paris) in a weak, timid, deprived of vigor and energy track, while in the broadcasted version, with a worse (and sometimes even in PAL-4% faster) audio quality, yet more accurate than all these recent releases.
That tells me it was better in the first decades after the release, when someone dumbed down the soundtracks, for whatever reason.
If I try to explain all this and tell others to buy all possible versions to make these sort of comparisons, to have the whole thing in a "copy" (all of them are "copies", the original isn't available to us - pay attention to the point I am trying to make here) that is not so much changed or degraded, anyone will call me a lunatic or eccentric, because I am saying we should buy a LP or laserdisc in 2016.
My answer would be this: remember the Allegory of the Cave from Plato:
*******
The prisoners are unable to see these puppets, the real objects, that pass behind them.
What the prisoners see and hear are shadows and echoes cast by objects that they do not see.
Such prisoners would mistake appearance for reality. As they had never seen the real objects ever before, they believe that the shadows of objects are real objects.
*******
When we say the recent versions are all that we need and everything else is nothing in comparison (for being old - as if in the past we had many complaining about the "loudness war"), it ammounts to saying the "shadows of copies of objects" are better than the copies themselves, and that the copies are better than the real objects.
The "copies" in that context would be the old versions that we rarely find these days. Why are we praising "shadows of copies" when we don't even care to know how good the "copies" are?
******
Oh, and I remembered something else: the tornado scene from Superman IV: The Quest For Peace (1987) in the broadcasted version (and japanese Laserdisc in Widescreen) has a soundtrack that I don't think is available in the 8-CD BLUE-BOX set. I am not talking about this scene as it is presented in DVDs/Blu-rays, as an extra feature (Deleted scene, with unfinished special effects).
I am talking about that scene as you can hear with the SFX. For some unknown reason, it wasn't included in the official releases, and I don't think it is in the BLUE-BOX, too.
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Interesting stuff. I can't help you, but at least I'll bump the thread for more attention
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OP's claim that the Rhino SUPERMAN sounds better than the Blue Box is very odd. There must be some peculiarity in his acoustic environment to create that impression. The Rhino was a godsend in its day, but the Blue Box is an improvement.
One note about the Box is that you can't exactly re-create the SUPERMAN II LP program, at least not without editing the tracks yourself. That was a nostalgia problem for a few people, but with the Box you're getting the complete score.
Another thing is, Rhino's Disc 2 Track 15 ("Can You Read My Mind") has Margot Kidder's vocal over it, while Disc 2 Track 17 is the same "pop/synth" cue but without Margot. In the Blue Box, this track is included only in the non-Margo version (Disc 8 Track 3). According to Mike Matessino, having Margot's vocal added to this track was a Rhino invention, never intended by John Williams.
In a trivia note, NBC's Meet the Press (a Sunday morning political show with Chuck Todd) is using the main title from SUPERGIRL to underscore one of its regular info segments. I don't know what recording it is, but they play it every week.
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The composers.
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I think we'll both agree the difference is subtle, but it's there. I am not an audio expert so I won't be able to explain this to you in technical terms, just say the Rhino album sounds better for me.
I'm having trouble hearing any difference, but to be fair I'm not listening on fine equipment right now. I will say the Rhino is holding up better than I thought it would. It is still a magnificent release.
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1. US Cut (around 105 mins) - with edited sequences and re-scored cues (inc. First Flight)
2. UK Cut (around (110 mins)
3. European Cut (around (125 mins)
4. Director's Cut (around 135 mins)
5. UK TV version (around 140 mins) - shown only once!
Good lord. I tried watching that film once and I struggled. HARD. In some ways it was worse than Superman III and Superman IV, and those were utter crap.
Here' a prime example of a film that does need to be rebooted. The original was a long crap sandwich, so a good one is in order.
Question for "Supergirl" score fans:
I tried a few tracks one time, but found the main theme to be annoying and seemingly with little variation. Just how much variance is there in the score as a whole, theme or otherwise? I don't want to check out more if it doesn't offer a hell of a lot more.
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Posted: |
Dec 24, 2016 - 1:41 PM
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By: |
Marisco
(Member)
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I think we'll both agree the difference is subtle, but it's there. I am not an audio expert so I won't be able to explain this to you in technical terms, just say the Rhino album sounds better for me.
I'm having trouble hearing any difference, but to be fair I'm not listening on fine equipment right now. I will say the Rhino is holding up better than I thought it would. It is still a magnificent release.I have both albums in FLAC, and can spot the differences even with cheap headphones.
If you guys want to differentiate between all these releases, you just need to put all of them together this way.
I am just surprised reviewers and most sites don't care to talk about how recent releases are different from older ones. You would think this is mainly due to the old material being inaccessible, but the fact is that there's no real interest from most people, I mean, inherent curiosity to discover if what they hear or watch nowadays is as much close as possible to the original source.
I am tired of seeing altered soundtracks and home-video releases tainted in some stupid way. Most buyers think, for example, that just because a movie is being released in Blu-ray that means it will be superior to the DVD/LD releases utterly. Some have even sold or throw away them.
Not if a shi.tty restoration was done. Even if a new release is as good as it can be, if something has been changed everyone should be aware of this and be able to make a choice.
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Just a hunch on my part, but while the TV series is still running I'm guessing the rights and approvals for an expanded Supergirl will be reserved by DC (or whoever owns the character, what do I know?).
I wouldn't hold your breath...
SG
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Thank you, Spymaster, that was a very helpful reply that detailed it enough to make me re-consider.
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