Could someone please post a youtube link to the piece that Horner drew inspiration from for one of the themes in Willow? I want to hear it for myself! Thanks!
AH! It was the Schumann symphony I was thinking of. I need to hear it. Are these in fact "inspirations", or are they direct quotes?
The Schumann is an inspiration to me. The 4 note theme is a generic musical device; people love to attribute it just to Rachmaninov, but Wagner might be upset to hear no one giving him credit for its use all over the Ring cycle (its ALL over the opening to Die Waukurie). The Janacek is an inspiration (to my ears), the Bartok a quote. Mir Stanke Le is a quote as is the Cantata for the 20th Anniversary of the October Revolution (you'll find the theme in Part V; actually the whole Cantata is a gold mine for Hornerisms).
Don't forget that that lilting motif heard near the end of the opening cue, representing Willow's relationship with his children as they convince him to take in the orphaned baby girl, is cribbed from a Tchaikovsky piece - I'm afraid I can't recall which, perhaps someone else here will remember.
As much as I enjoy aspects of this score as a listening experience, it's gotta be one of Horner's least original and most plagiaristic efforts.
Obviously, emotions run high in debates like this. But to me, most of these go beyond mere "inspiration." Sure, notes are changed here and there, but the cumulative effect of one swipe after another is hard to ignore.
Some will always ask why we're hard on Horner in this regard, when all film composers have taken ideas or melodic fragments from time to time. My answer is that no other major composer plagiarized to nearly the extent that Horner did, often barely bothering to disguise the theft. I was a Horner fan from his first score to his last, but when (in the span of just a few weeks) I first heard "Alexander Nevsky" (from which the theme from "Glory" is explicitly taken) and "Gayane" (which contains the main title from "Aliens," unchanged), my reaction was "Who does he think he's kidding here?"
And as the poster above me said, it's a shame, because scores like "Krull" proved that Horner could write dynamite original scores. He often just chose not to.
Just a reminder, since people keep holding Krull up as exceptional to the rule, it's full of this kind of thing too - especially Prokofiev (Romeo and Juliet) and Penderecki (Widow's Lullaby etc.). And I'm sure that the main theme also has a very clear antecedent in Romantic music - but I can't for the life of me remember what and no time to research it.
I made my peace with Horner's borrowings years ago (either that or stop listening and I didn't want to stop listening) by classing him with sometime "collagist" composers like Berio, Schnittke and George Rochberg who would either incorporate existing music directly into their pieces or compose music very consciously in the style of a particular composer. (John Adams has done this a few times as well.) I figure if it's good enough for them it's good enough for him.
What is odder is his tendency to repeat himself verbatim from score to score. I skipped Uncommon Valor even as it sold out as I simply don't need another recording of all the Hornerisms that seem to fill that score (plus the 1941 knockoff march at the end).
Thanks to Justin for posting the link to Mir Stanke Le as the "original" for Willow's theme. Because it points out the other side of this issue. Like Liszt, Brahms, Bartok, Kodaly, Copland, Ravel and many others, Horner often doesn't just take his models verbatim (though sometimes he does, almost like a patch in his own music). Sometimes he simply takes them as a starting point and makes his own kinda music, sings his own special song.
And even when it is a pretty definitive lift - Horner still makes it very much his own. What I like about this is that it turns music into an ongoing conversation. And what else I like about it is that Schumann's Rhenish is my personal favorite 19th century symphony!
Obviously, emotions run high in debates like this. But to me, most of these go beyond mere "inspiration." Sure, notes are changed here and there, but the cumulative effect of one swipe after another is hard to ignore.
Some will always ask why we're hard on Horner in this regard, when all film composers have taken ideas or melodic fragments from time to time. My answer is that no other major composer plagiarized to nearly the extent that Horner did, often barely bothering to disguise the theft. I was a Horner fan from his first score to his last, but when (in the span of just a few weeks) I first heard "Alexander Nevsky" (from which the theme from "Glory" is explicitly taken) and "Gayane" (which contains the main title from "Aliens," unchanged), my reaction was "Who does he think he's kidding here?"
And as the poster above me said, it's a shame, because scores like "Krull" proved that Horner could write dynamite original scores. He often just chose not to.
While I agree with you in spirit, there are some things to take into account.
Firstly, several other composers have done the same and from the same works. Bernstein used the strained "four note danger motif" of Alexander Nevsky in a few of his scores and to say Howard Shore's LOTR choir music owes much to Prokofiev is something of a kindly understatement.
Secondly, a lot of us on this board would not be here if it wasn't for Horner (take that statement as you will!). But many of us wouldn't have gotten into filmscore if it hadn't been for Willow (I, as a child, could've sworn that it was that dude who did Star Wars! He did every movie, right? All that music came from one guy!) or for The Rocketeer or any number of other scores.
And finally, lets be honest: Hollywood treats composers like red-headed stepchildren. So short of Ron Howard or Steven Spielberg, a lot of people put up temp tracks and ask people like Mr Horner to get as close as they can to it. Some times it works out (Aliens) and other times, well, you get Sam Raimi versus Danny Elfman on Spider-Man 2. So when we hear something *again*, we should also hear the producer over the composer's shoulder whispering "Play it again, Sam."
Yeah... that's definitely a lift, but Horner definitely made it different as well. Just like Conti did with his main theme for The Right Stuff, which I actually like a LOT more than the Tchaikovsky piece! I have that "Mysterious Voices of Bulgaria" 3-disc box set and was damned near knocked out of my chair when I heard them singing "Willow's Theme"... very odd thing to borrow from... don't you think?
And finally, lets be honest: Hollywood treats composers like red-headed stepchildren. So short of Ron Howard or Steven Spielberg, a lot of people put up temp tracks and ask people like Mr Horner to get as close as they can to it.
You're right, of course. But it need pointing out that Willow *is* from director Ron Howard. And I just find it funny that you used 'red-headed stepchildren' and 'Ron Howard' so close together in a paragraph LOL.
I'm sure that the main theme also has a very clear antecedent in Romantic music - but I can't for the life of me remember what and no time to research it.
Well, aside from using Holst's MARS rhythm for the bad guy's underlying material, there's also a clear nod to "The Witch's Ride" from Humperdinck's HANSEL AND GRETEL opera - First heard at 0:37 or so in the first few notes of the main theme, and then again at around 1:07 - Which is extremely similar to the fugue in the second half of "Ride of the Firemares":
I like Horner's version much, much better, and it's a pretty slight borrowing really, in the same way the SUPERMAN love theme's borrowing from that Strauss piece (can never remember the name) is incredibly slight as well...
