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Sting, Ferry, Dylan - you mentioned them, Bill. I could add a dozen other names of people whose work is absolutely huge here in Spain, and yet nobody understands a word they're singing. So just exactly how much are people missing if they don't understand the words? If we're talking really great lyricists I suppose it's a bit (just a wee bit) like opening a poetry book in a language you don't understand and nodding in awe at the brilliance of it all. So are the audiences just pretending?
I think people don't even think it's part of the deal to listen to the pesky lyrics, but that's an insult to the writers really.
In this case, the song cleverly uses Hell's Angels lingo and religious stuff to paint the picture, but it also uses modern rock/metal technique. Now that technique (and I'm not knocking it) did largely come out of modern materialistic music industry, so it's part of the thing it's criticising. That's the rub: you use something ironically, and it has the opposite effect. They hear the music but not the words. And the song therefore fails.
But y'know, the Spaniards have an excuse; it's not their first language!
Sorry to hear about your situation, Storyteller. I wonder if my trivial postings on this thread are inappropriate now...
But I'll go ahead because the "lyrics" issue is worth exploring in a deeper way. William, when you say that "the Spaniards have an excuse; it's not their first language!", you are of course right. I'm just interested in how much zero knowledge of the words of a song influence our/ their perception of it. I'm not talking about Michael Jackson spectaculars (showmanship) or Miley Cyrus open-legged on top of a car, or simple "pop songs", because they generally convey whatever is meant to be conveyed even if you don't get the lyrics. There's often not much to get.
You mentioned Bryan Ferry, Bob Dylan... I'll add (and there are more) Leonard Cohen. Now, I personally know lots of intelligent people who claim to adore Cohen, and yet they can't understand a word of what he's singing. To me, Cohen is all poetry. So, I insist, are those people who claim to like him just "pretending", based on what they've read about him and thus what they're "supposed" to feel? Is the big hat important?
It of course works the other way too. I love the old Jobim/ Astrud Gilberto albums, but my Portuguese is shakey to say the least. Maybe in that particular case the songs get by without an intimate knowledge of the meaning of the lyrics, similar to what I said before.
Just to finish off, when Joan Baez did her 1970 summer tour, she brought along the renowned singer-songwriter Gustavo Teleñeco-Rana. Born in Mexico, and a direct descendent of Emiliano "Viva" Zapata, he spoke all his songs in the Spanish language. The crowds in London went wild, thinking that he was singing about something deeply political. Only afterwards did he confess that it was a joke, that he wasn't even the real Teleñeco-Rana, and that he was reading nursery rhymes. Baez was absolutely furious when she found out about the hoax.
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Priceless.
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The only song David Hallyday wrote music for in movie is sung by his mom Sylvie Vartan.
Both songs he sings were not written by him at all.
Chime in as he's a very competent composer of songs, mainly in France.
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Just to finish off, when Joan Baez did her 1970 summer tour, she brought along the renowned singer-songwriter Gustavo Teleñeco-Rana. Born in Mexico, and a direct descendent of Emiliano "Viva" Zapata, he spoke all his songs in the Spanish language. The crowds in London went wild, thinking that he was singing about something deeply political. Only afterwards did he confess that it was a joke, that he wasn't even the real Teleñeco-Rana, and that he was reading nursery rhymes. Baez was absolutely furious when she found out about the hoax.
THE BELOW BIT SHOULDN'T BE IN ITALICS - IT'S NEW
Something rings false about that story Graham. Any Baez, Zapata, or Teleñeco-Rana experts out there who can confirm it?
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Just to finish off, when Joan Baez did her 1970 summer tour, she brought along the renowned singer-songwriter Gustavo Teleñeco-Rana. Born in Mexico, and a direct descendent of Emiliano "Viva" Zapata, he spoke all his songs in the Spanish language. The crowds in London went wild, thinking that he was singing about something deeply political. Only afterwards did he confess that it was a joke, that he wasn't even the real Teleñeco-Rana, and that he was reading nursery rhymes. Baez was absolutely furious when she found out about the hoax.
THE BELOW BIT SHOULDN'T BE IN ITALICS - IT'S NEW
Something rings false about that story Graham. Any Baez, Zapata, or Teleñeco-Rana experts out there who can confirm it?
I've been a big fan of Joan Baez and Folk scene in general ; have never heard such baloney.
There are no records of such 1970 summer tour with that guy. Besides Baez understood Spanish
very well so would have immediately caught on and stopped it.
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Just to finish off, when Joan Baez did her 1970 summer tour, she brought along the renowned singer-songwriter Gustavo Teleñeco-Rana. Born in Mexico, and a direct descendent of Emiliano "Viva" Zapata, he spoke all his songs in the Spanish language. The crowds in London went wild, thinking that he was singing about something deeply political. Only afterwards did he confess that it was a joke, that he wasn't even the real Teleñeco-Rana, and that he was reading nursery rhymes. Baez was absolutely furious when she found out about the hoax.
THE BELOW BIT SHOULDN'T BE IN ITALICS - IT'S NEW
Something rings false about that story Graham. Any Baez, Zapata, or Teleñeco-Rana experts out there who can confirm it?
I've been a big fan of Joan Baez and Folk scene in general ; have never heard such baloney.
There are no records of such 1970 summer tour with that guy. Besides Baez understood Spanish
very well so would have immediately caught on and stopped it.
Actually Zambra, I mean Alex - I think I'm misremembering the name of Viva Zapata's lovechild. It was actually Gustavo de los Teleñecos (not Gustavo Teleñeco-Rana - don't know where I got that from). You might not know the name, but if you do a Google Search for images I'm sure you'll recognise him.
ADDED A BIT LATER - THE ABOVE BIT SHOULDN'T BE IN ITALICS EITHER
Akeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeta!
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WEll Graham, Gustavo de los Telenecos is actually Kermit the Frog.
Yes Joan did participate in Sesame Street some, but can't find any reference to
a summer of 1970 tour.
I like music mainly because of folk and folk-rock and know well stuff on my
favorite artists (Like Joan), and all the references have on her don't mention
that.
Anyway....really doesn't matter.
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Hey Graham, no problem. Read your last post on "thickness of a caveman".
I do believe your story.
What said I find no reference about that tour.
Like said before , doesn't matter at all.
Alex .
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Posted: |
Jul 4, 2015 - 12:51 PM
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By: |
Octoberman
(Member)
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Hi guys. It's Ock.
I'm loath to repeat the little anecdote that I posted in the other thread.
When I recalled it, I was unprepared for how much pain it would cause me. After all these years I thought I had made my peace with it.
Anyway, suffice to say that Graham's recollections are as true as my recollections of being Joan's emotional plaything. I was not just her bassist, I would have given anything to be hers. Instead I was reduced to a mere minion, fetching her a cloth to mop up with when she was done with her latest conquest.
To this day, "Silent Running" leaves me a blubbering mess. 
You know, as hurt as I apparently still am, it pales in comparison to the times I spent in glorious joy with Francesca Annis. But, inevitably, it ended so badly that words cannot describe it. Stanford Sherman, a good friend of mine at the time, knew something of what I went through and he incorporated elements of it into the Widow Of The Web sequence--being careful to change just enough of it to protect various identities.
It's been kept locked inside me until now.
And, with that, I take my leave of you good gents.
With respect to our buddy Storyteller, I don't think this thread is quite the appropriate venue for further reminiscing.
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Oh Octoberman... I feel your pain. In my experience it's best to get those things out in the open. Sharing really does relieve the burden. I actually spoke to Francesca Annis just the other day. We were reminiscing about when we shared an apartment. The relationship was passionate in the extreme, but, like all heavenly things, it came to an end. She wanted to further her career blah blah blah, and our lovemaking was just too time-consuming - and energy-sapping. But just that other day, Ock, she mentioned in the passing that she had had at least some "fantasies" about being with another man, a man she had met, someone very special to her. Then she stared crying and I didn't want to press the matter. But I think she was making veiled references to you, Ock. London, spring '79 by any chance?
But you're right. This is not what Storyteller would have wanted for his thread. Go over to the Caveman's Thickness thread and get everything off your chest. Seeya there buddy.
Storyteller, do you mind if we continue battling out the truth behind the Joan Baez story?
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Posted: |
Jul 4, 2015 - 5:14 PM
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By: |
BobJ
(Member)
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Oh Octoberman... I feel your pain. In my experience it's best to get those things out in the open. Sharing really does relieve the burden. I actually spoke to Francesca Annis just the other day. We were reminiscing about when we shared an apartment. The relationship was passionate in the extreme, but, like all heavenly things, it came to an end. She wanted to further her career blah blah blah, and our lovemaking was just too time-consuming - and energy-sapping. But just that other day, Ock, she mentioned in the passing that she had had at least some "fantasies" about being with another man, a man she had met, someone very special to her. Then she stared crying and I didn't want to press the matter. But I think she was making veiled references to you, Ock. London, spring '79 by any chance?
But you're right. This is not what Storyteller would have wanted for his thread. Go over to the Caveman's Thickness thread and get everything off your chest. Seeya there buddy.
Storyteller, do you mind if we continue battling out the truth behind the Joan Baez story?
Not at all. It's far more interesting than the original post. LOL.
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Here's an admission - In my post of July 2nd, the first three paragraphs were genuine, about how we perceive and possibly distort the meaning or the intention of a song when we don't understand the language being sung.
The last paragraph was a joke. Of course there was no Joan Baez summer tour with Gustavo Teleñeco-Rana, Gustavo de los Teleñecos, or anyone. Yes, that name IS the one we use here for Kermit the Frog. I gave you a hint with "Rana" (frog). And the Teleñecos are the Muppets. I didn't expect many of you to pick up on that. It's not an intelligence test, just me having a puerile laugh. But how could you let slip the claim that Teleñeco-Rana was a descendent of Emiliano "Viva" Zapata? As if Viva was his nickname!
Well, I had fun anyway. Sorry if you didn't! No worries. What a lovely evening! I think I'll go out for a beer.
Seeya!
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Well, I had fun anyway. Sorry if you didn't! No worries. What a lovely evening! I think I'll go out for a beer.
Seeya!
Halliwell says you're a pinko ginko. You can't deny that.
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