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An expansion of an expansion? Is that where we are now?
Madness.
To paraphrase Jor-El from SUPERMAN: THE MOVIE - "(Perhaps) this madness is yours."
To want the music we love to sound as good (and complete) as possible is NOT insane. It's simply wanting more of our favorite composer's cherished music, upgraded when it is truly necessary (in the case of JFK because of when the existing CD was mastered and manufactured, and HOOK because certain elements weren't available at the time). If more cues could be added to HOOK for those who want them, if and when that remastering is ever done, I don't know why you would have a problem with that and call it "mad". Just don't buy it if you're not interested in it.
That's fine and dandy, but how many times are people prepared to buy the same thing over and over again? It's not mad, it's insane.
For some scores, I'm totally with you, especially the Fox scores from the '40s-'70s that all sound like garbage but keep getting magical remasters that always end up sounding like a different kind of garbage (I still think the Legacy release of The Blue Max is the best one, blow me!). No one can make those scores sound good. But something like Hook was such a nightmare, like the original Batman release, that it deserves to be revisited (again, if they find 100% of the elements this time).
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Not to derail the thread, but is every single bit of of Fox material covering four decades garbage, Shaun? I don't think that such a blanket assessment is fair, although you're entitled to make it. Should all that music by Newman, Herrmann, Waxman, Friedhofer, Harline, Goldsmith, North, etc. etc. just been left to disintegrate and be forgotten?
Mike M.
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Not to derail the thread, but is every single bit of of Fox material covering four decades garbage, Shaun? I don't think that such a blanket assessment is fair, although you're entitled to make it. Should all that music by Newman, Herrmann, Waxman, Friedhofer, Harline, Goldsmith, North, etc. etc. just been left to disintegrate and be forgotten?
Mike M.
Ha, sorry, I didn't mean the music itself! It's just their poor archival process has left us with compromised audio quality for most every score of theirs in that range (and beyond, somehow, as that same archival sound plagues Die Hard as well). Have I bought most every (original) issue of the scores? Of course. Do I like the music? Yes! Does it pain me that most every Fox release sounds like this? Sad, but true.
I thought this was going to be the way all of these older scores were going to be when FSM first started releasing CDs, but once they got onto Warner, their stuff sounded like it was recorded yesterday. Maybe I'm forgetting a studio, but Fox's scores have been a problem. You obviously have a more informed opinion that includes worse examples, like Sony (or was it MGM, I forget) literally just throwing the scores in the actual garbage.
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I know you are talking about the presentations and not the music itself. What you said was "Fox scores from the '40s-'70s that all sound like garbage." It's the blanket and absolute dismissal of every title that I find unfair. Yes, Warner Bros. may have a better track record for basic condition, but I don't see how, for example, the most recent versions of David and Bathsheba, The Day the Earth Stood Still, Garden of Evil, The Fury, Rio Conchos, and releases like Man Hunt and all the countless push/pull stereo recordings we've done can be considered as sounding like garbage. As the person who spends a great deal of effort working with all this material so that it can have a life and be shared with the people without whom FSM wouldn't even exist, I'm admittedly biased, but obviously the mining of the Fox catalogue has made a lot of film music collectors very happy for many years and things have evolved quite a bit since the process started in the 1990s. The only alternative would be to say, "this is not 100% perfect, so let's not release it at all." Then where would we be?
Mike M.
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The only alternative would be to say, "this is not 100% perfect, so let's not release it at all." Then where would we be?
Mike M.
It reminds me of a quote from a Halloween episode of "The Simpsons", where Maggie has axed somebody in the back, then pulls out her pacifier and says in a deep male voice, "This is indeed a disturbing universe."
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I know you are talking about the presentations and not the music itself. What you said was "Fox scores from the '40s-'70s that all sound like garbage." It's the blanket and absolute dismissal of every title that I find unfair. Yes, Warner Bros. may have a better track record for basic condition, but I don't see how, for example, the most recent versions of David and Bathsheba, The Day the Earth Stood Still, Garden of Evil, The Fury, Rio Conchos, and releases like Man Hunt and all the countless push/pull stereo recordings we've done can be considered as sounding like garbage. As the person who spends a great deal of effort working with all this material so that it can have a life and be shared with the people without whom FSM wouldn't even exist, I'm admittedly biased, but obviously the mining of the Fox catalogue has made a lot of film music collectors very happy for many years and things have evolved quite a bit since the process started in the 1990s. The only alternative would be to say, "this is not 100% perfect, so let's not release it at all." Then where would we be?
Mike M.
I see your point. It was a blanket statement that left no room for scores that do stand apart from this fate. I don't agree with all of your examples, but for the scores prior to say Planet Of The Apes, I definitely accept the archival sound of the Fox scores more than I do for things from the '70s or Return Of The Jedi and Die Hard, where it's upsetting how poorly the scores were preserved. My "garbage" statement about those decades was more to do with defending a Hook re-release versus remastering the same Fox tracks over and over for different labels when there's only so much you can do with those tapes. I think that a title like Hook needs to be revisited eventually, as the original release was compromised and "forced" to come out when it did, and while something like The Day The Earth Stood Still deserves to always be in print from SOME label, the advancements in technology that you're working with can't revitalize it in a way that will make it worthwhile for me (for me!) to buy for a fourth time. I dunno, bad example maybe.
I'm obviously glad the Fox scores came out in the first place, especially because of what opening the Fox vault meant in the long run for FSM and beyond, and I'm fine with the scores coming out again and again and again for younger listeners, but for me personally, I just don't buy into the pre-release hype of the remastering of these scores like I used to (I'm referring ONLY to Fox scores and the less-than-stellar state the tapes were left in and that is no reflection on your valiant efforts to restore them or your other work with other studios, which has been stellar for many, many years).
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Thanks, Shaun. Just know that no one tries to put out a bad product. And there is never a lack of effort to find all material and to do everything that can be done with it.
Should a label decide to reissue an out of print score, then the reason we revisit it is not so they can tout it as "remastered" but so that the material can become a more usable asset for the studio. Few people realize that as a result of this work the studios are able to update their foreign tracks of many of their films. Revisiting the elements gives us higher resolution transfers and frees us from locked mixes that were done in the '90s. Quite often, some previously undiscovered element will also appear, which happened with The Egyptian. There are even cases where the multi-channel material is offered publicly via some isolated music tracks for Twilight Time. Anastasia Garden of Evil, and The Fury, to name a few, have 3-channel isolated music tracks on the Blu-rays.
Point is, it's a symbiotic and mutually beneficial relationship. The studios are prompted to pull the material by a soundtrack label and then everyone benefits from that process. Not every consumer has to buy the resulting releases, of course, but at least there will be a way for future generations to explore this music when we're all gone.
For something like Die Hard, the unfortunate situation is that the final mixes with all of the overlays and sweeteners only exist on the same grade of elements that have been spread around for 20 years. We have seen other material, but it's not usable for that reason.
Mike M.
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Yeah, and it's not your fault at all! The work is absolutely appreciated (even though I simply have to stop buying The Day The Earth Stood Still), and I love hearing about the process, but I'm still going to be sore from a historical perspective about the Fox archives. I have every issue of The Fury as well (including both the Blu-rays in both regions, because I am not smart and wanted more bonus features), but I still the think the album version sounds best on the original Varese (the Varese Deluxe Edition was mastered way too hot and I don't remember the LLL version being that much better, but I could be wrong).
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What's missing from Hook? I'm quite content with the expanded version we got, but I don't have intimate knowledge of the score either.
I think "Hook" deserves some kind of concert recording or reconstruction. Remember it was originally written as a musical, with lyrics by Leslie Bricusse. That might account for its being written the same year as "JFK": already-composed material was re-purposed.
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Not to encourage political discussion, but . . .
Anyone else excited about tomorrow?
I gave the director's cut DVD another spin and have had the OST blaring in the car all week. I may give "Dave" and "The American President" another listen. There's also "Nixon."
And how about the other scores that were greatly influenced by Williams' "JFK." I can think of two worth another look: "Panther" and "Game Over: Kasparov and the Machine." Others?
...Where's Eric Paddon? Seriously.
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Not to encourage political discussion, but . . .
How could it end up being political, Sigerson?
John Kennedy was murdered by white supremacist elements in the military/intelligence branches of the U.S. Government. They didn't dig the whole civil rights thing for African-Americans, ya know.
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Okay, so I guess I'm having flashbacks to Geraldo opening Al Capone's vault on live TV. The big revelation: nothing.
The good news: someone can still make "JFK 2" if they're quick. Who wants to start the "Who will score 'JFK 2'?" thread? Let me start it: I think Giacchino will act alone. He'll be the lone composer. Just my own theory.
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