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 Posted:   Dec 7, 2014 - 11:49 AM   
 By:   Chris Avis   (Member)

One of the interesting things about living in the "Age of Expansions" is comparing old album releases with expansions or releases of the complete score. In some cases, I find that there's such a wealth of new material from these new releases, that it's like listening to a whole new score. In other cases, I'm bored listening to the new releases and asking myself..."that's it? that's the new material?"

A lot of this seems tied to how well selected and arranged original albums were which were often restricted to 30-40 minutes in the bad old days. So, which composers assemble or assembled the best albums. Here's a few that immediately spring to mind.

Best album assemblers
John Williams
John Barry
James Horner

Worst album assemblers
Jerry Goldsmith
Brian Tyler

Chris

 
 
 Posted:   Dec 7, 2014 - 12:11 PM   
 By:   OnyaBirri   (Member)

Henry Mancini holds the distinction of assembling some of the best and worst soundtrack albums.

 
 Posted:   Dec 7, 2014 - 12:19 PM   
 By:   Lokutus   (Member)

I would say Goldsmith was one of the BEST!
Sure his album lacked some minor moments here and there but considering limitations of the format that could include only so much material, their selection and listening on their own were usually very strong and (almost) always offered great overview of the entire scores and their highlights.

Name one badly compiled Goldsmith album.
And no, I wouldn't blame Goldsmith for Six Degrees of Separation mess.



-----------


Personally I am not that fond of the way some Aaron Zigman's albums are assembled. The selection of highlight first let's say covering 1/2 of the album and offering a fine selection and then rest of the score that sometimes consists of not so much interesting remainder of the score. It's like side 1 of the LP people are actually supposed to listen and then 2nd side, which is most often far less interesting.

I won't name anyone but what I really hate is if the score has overall architecture and develops its content through whole movie and then the album is assembled with the climatic cue of the movie (and the score) opening the album, which then follows pretty much chrological order except that it ends without proper finale, since that was already included as track 1 of the album.

 
 
 Posted:   Dec 7, 2014 - 12:26 PM   
 By:   Thor   (Member)

John Williams, definitely.

But in general, I'm pro any composer doing an album arrangement of their own music. It usually works, whatever choices they make, because they know their stuff and their own music better than anyone.

The time/format restriction that you all speak of, I actually consider a benefit as it 'forced' them to reconceptualize.

The worst album assemblers are those that present things more or less C&C or who present too much of the music so that it wears out its welcome. Bear McCreary comes to mind. I like a lot of his music, but he really needs to make some priorities in his album programming (or maybe he's caving in to fan demand?).

 
 
 Posted:   Dec 7, 2014 - 12:45 PM   
 By:   OnyaBirri   (Member)


But in general, I'm pro any composer doing an album arrangement of their own music. It usually works, whatever choices they make, because they know their stuff and their own music better than anyone.

The time/format restriction that you all speak of, I actually consider a benefit as it 'forced' them to reconceptualize.


You clearly don't listen to the same albums that I do. There are all kinds of lousy soundtrack albums out there. Composers didn't always get to choose. The restrictions could be driven by such diverse factors as using only the music recorded in time for a deadline, or A&R expectations of what music would sell. Theory and practice do not always agree.

 
 
 Posted:   Dec 7, 2014 - 12:50 PM   
 By:   Randy Watson   (Member)

Have to disagree with Goldsmith, I liked most of his album presentations. I think the original versions of for instance Bad Girls and The Edge are better listening experiences than the expanded ones. And while most releases sometimes missed some great cues, the assembled albums where always perfect listening experiences, none of his soundtracks outstayed their welcome.

I sometimes miss the days of those 30 - 45 min releases. I could play most of the albums again and again, whereas these days when I'm halfway through a Brian Tyler album, I'm starting to lose my interest.

When it comes to 60+ min soundtracks, James Horner and John Williams always know how to assemble a great album.

Elliot Goldenthal also always has great album presentations of his scores.

 
 Posted:   Dec 7, 2014 - 1:08 PM   
 By:   Solium   (Member)

I do think John Williams is a master at this and probably the best. In retrospect I really appreciate some of the shorter Goldsmith albums such as Congo, and Explorers. James Horner is always good, but most of his scores are great even in sessions form. Conan was perfect in its original OST outing, but so was the expanded edition. Same can be said for STTMP. Perfect in both it's short and long album presentations.

 
 
 Posted:   Dec 7, 2014 - 1:40 PM   
 By:   Tobias   (Member)

Worst, well then I have two contenders:

If James Newton Howard was the man to blame for the Varese 30 minute album assembly of Outbreak. The movie contains so many great cues and he (or whoever it was) assembled the least interesting cues and skipped ALL the great ones (except one).

The same can be said about David Arnold`s Tomorrow Never Dies.

The best ones is a more tricky one but I have to think a little more before answer it.

 
 
 Posted:   Dec 7, 2014 - 1:46 PM   
 By:   Chris Avis   (Member)

Worst, well then I have two contenders:

If James Newton Howard was the man to blame for the Varese 30 minute album assembly of Outbreak. The movie contains so many great cues and he (or whoever it was) assembled the least interesting cues and skipped ALL the great ones (except one).

The same can be said about David Arnold`s Tomorrow Never Dies.

The best ones is a more tricky one but I have to think a little more before answer it.


I thought I heard that Tomorrow Never Dies had to be issued with the latter half of the score missing because the album needed to be finalized while the score was still being recorded.

Re: Goldsmith, you guys are right. I was probably being a little harsh. I'm thinking of some albums in particular that really sounded so much better in complete form like First Knight and Star Trek V. And there's definitely some of his latter day score albums that I thought had questionable cue selection (ST: Nemesis in particular comes to mind).

Perhaps I should have re-structured the topic to simply being best / worst albums since, as others have pointed out, sometimes there are factors other than composers' wishes that dictate album format.

Chris.

 
 
 Posted:   Dec 7, 2014 - 1:55 PM   
 By:   Randy Watson   (Member)

An infamous Ford A. Thaxton "we are Fanboys who know nothing" rant in 3..., 2..., 1...

 
 
 Posted:   Dec 7, 2014 - 2:09 PM   
 By:   Thor   (Member)


But in general, I'm pro any composer doing an album arrangement of their own music. It usually works, whatever choices they make, because they know their stuff and their own music better than anyone.

The time/format restriction that you all speak of, I actually consider a benefit as it 'forced' them to reconceptualize.


You clearly don't listen to the same albums that I do. There are all kinds of lousy soundtrack albums out there. Composers didn't always get to choose. The restrictions could be driven by such diverse factors as using only the music recorded in time for a deadline, or A&R expectations of what music would sell. Theory and practice do not always agree.


Of course. But of all the factors influencing this end result, the time limitation of older formats was at least one factor that pushed the 're-conceptualization' idea to the front. Which is only a good thing from my standpoint. Beyond that, one is free to like or dislike an album in any given way.

 
 Posted:   Dec 7, 2014 - 2:13 PM   
 By:   BornOfAJackal   (Member)

I always thought John Williams really conceptualized the best showcases for his themes. From the first Star Wars through Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom, I thought he was the best.

I thought John Barry caught up to him, album-wise, around the time of A View to a Kill and The Living Daylights.

 
 
 Posted:   Dec 7, 2014 - 2:16 PM   
 By:   OnyaBirri   (Member)


Of course. But of all the factors influencing this end result, the time limitation of older formats was at least one factor that pushed the 're-conceptualization' idea to the front. Which is only a good thing from my standpoint. Beyond that, one is free to like or dislike an album in any given way.


I agree. But at least in the cases of soundtrack albums that suck, the availability of the full versions allows decades-old errors in judgment to be corrected.

 
 
 Posted:   Dec 7, 2014 - 2:24 PM   
 By:   Francis   (Member)

I generally like what Christopher Young does with his promos & albums, he has a knack for selecting his best cues and organizing them in a way that makes for a good listening experience.

 
 
 Posted:   Dec 7, 2014 - 2:25 PM   
 By:   Ford A. Thaxton   (Member)

Worst, well then I have two contenders:

If James Newton Howard was the man to blame for the Varese 30 minute album assembly of Outbreak. The movie contains so many great cues and he (or whoever it was) assembled the least interesting cues and skipped ALL the great ones (except one).


In your humble opinion......

Since Mr. Howard produced that album, one would assume that he put on the cues he liked and thought represented the best parts of his score.

I'm sure you fell you know what to do so much better then he does about such matters..

The other issue with that score is that it was recorded in LA with AFM Players and was released under the old New Usage Payment rules which accounted for such a short release.

I would have assumed you would have known about that given how long you've been around here...


I thought I heard that Tomorrow Never Dies had to be issued with the latter half of the score missing because the album needed to be finalized while the score was still being recorded.

That is correct..

Re: Goldsmith, you guys are right. I was probably being a little harsh. I'm thinking of some albums in particular that really sounded so much better in complete form like First Knight and Star Trek V. And there's definitely some of his latter day score albums that I thought had questionable cue selection (ST: Nemesis in particular comes to mind).[endtquote]

Both scores were released be Major Labels and produced under the old AFM rules, even with that I'd be hard pressed to pick a single cue I'd would have left off of any of them.

In the case of "ST: Nemesis" my understanding is that Mr. Townson choose the cues for the album that Jerry Approved (Once again a AFM Recorded score released under the old New Usage Rules), as I recall the original album was pretty good given that those limits.


Perhaps I should have re-structured the topic to simply being best / worst albums since, as others have pointed out, sometimes there are factors other than composers' wishes that dictate album format.

Chris.


That is also correct.

Ford A. Thaxton

 
 
 Posted:   Dec 7, 2014 - 2:26 PM   
 By:   .   (Member)


The time/format restriction that you all speak of, I actually consider a benefit as it 'forced' them to reconceptualize.





Arranging an LP album generally meant making sure the sides had balanced content over the two sides. Even if the storyline demands a pastoral first half to the score and an action-packed second half, the musical architecture had to be abandoned to cater for the craze for two LP sides with balanced content.

That results in nonsense like Rozsa's Phase 4 Quo Vadis where the Chariot Chase/Burning of Rome music are reversed in order and split to different sides simply to have one action track on each side of the album. That's nothing to do with musical considerations, but everything to do with format restriction. When listening to that album with no break (on CD) the LP split makes no sense. I doubt very much the composer would have ordered the album that way if it had been arranged for continuous CD play in the first place.

The album producers knew that LP albums sold because of their main themes. So more often than not, the first track of both sides would need to be a big, major theme – say the main title on side one and the main love theme on side two. They didn't want people who bought LPs because they liked just the big themes saying the "best tracks" were all on side one and that the other side was "just background music".

If there was only one romantic track in the soundtrack, the composer might arrange a new one just for the album so that both sides would have a love theme present. So when the LPs were later released to CD, we'd find that non-soundtrack extra track stuck right in the middle of the CD – simply because it was placed there to start side two of an LP with an instantly recognizable main theme. A totally irrelevant location on an uninterrupted CD.

Obviously loads of albums are classics and sound great in whatever format they've ever been played But are you saying they wouldn't have been as good if they had been arranged with uninterrupted open reel tape as the prime carrier, rather than LP?

 
 Posted:   Dec 7, 2014 - 2:29 PM   
 By:   danbeck   (Member)

I always thought John Williams really conceptualized the best showcases for his themes. From the first Star Wars through Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom, I thought he was the best.

I thought John Barry caught up to him, album-wise, around the time of A View to a Kill and The Living Daylights.


A View to a Kill?! It includes some of the more slow/ boring parts, repeats the action theme three times but leaves out some great more varied music like the horse escape, the fight at the house and the A View To a Kill variation at the finale ("this will hurt him more than me")...

John Williams was very good when assembling albums, even if Temple of Doom and Return of the Jedi were doomed due to the albums short duration for such varied scores. Christopher Young is also a good album assembler. And Hans Zimmer also.

 
 
 Posted:   Dec 7, 2014 - 2:34 PM   
 By:   Thor   (Member)

I don't know, Basil....but from what you describe there, it actually sounds like something very much up my alley. And I've enjoyed practically all my CD's released around 1990 that were straight reissues of older LPs. There seems to be a fine balance of ebb and flow (like a sonata form) in the program.

For someone like me, who's not interested in the films or -- in fact -- any function the music may originally have had in the film, it seems to work very well. Like a concert program (with an intermission/flipping of the LP).

 
 Posted:   Dec 7, 2014 - 2:35 PM   
 By:   Sean Nethery   (Member)

I think in these kinds of threads it's import to state one's stance on this issue: I prefer albums of highlights in most cases, because I'm looking for a strong musical experience more than hearing all the music from the movie in the clear. And I prefer hearing how the composer wants to focus and present the music vs. an audio catalogue.

For a change of pace from these choices, I'll pick a few modern day examples of folks who do some good work even in the CD age of too-much-is-never-enough.

I think Hans Zimmer can create a fine album of his work when he limits. Examples for me are the Sherlock Holmes albums, Inception, and Broken Arrow. They all play very well. The expansion of Broken Arrow really wears out its welcome for me.

(He's also put out albums that are way too much of a good thing, but everybody does these days from time to time (and I'm talking about music I like here) - the Pirates 2 & 3 are just exhausting, by the end I feel like I never want to hear them again.)

Marco Beltrami has made some very fine albums from his scores - my favorites are Hellboy, Flight of the Phoenix and 3:10 to Yuma.

I've loved some of Elfman's album assemblies - Beetlejuice and Batman the first, Darkman and Mission Impossible, Hulk and Alice in Wonderland, Charlie and the Chocolate Factory and Dark Shadows.

John Powell can do great albums without going overboard - very big fan of his album of The Italian Job, it plays perfectly.

And Michael Giacchino has put together some great albums: my favorites are the Incredibles and Star Trek into Darkness. Both are missing a ton of music and both play beautifully as presented. So much so for Trek that I much prefer it to the expanded recording.

 
 Posted:   Dec 7, 2014 - 2:43 PM   
 By:   Solium   (Member)

I agree Zimmer does a great job with his albums. I don't think I've preferred a single C&C yet released. I always back to his OST's.

 
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