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 Posted:   Aug 15, 2014 - 3:23 AM   
 By:   CinemaScope   (Member)

The Film Program on BBC Radio Four yesterday afternoon (repeated 11pm Sunday) was very interesting. Nearly half of it was about the state of special effects companies. It seem that in L.A. special effects (CGI) are in meltdown, companies closing, lots of people losing their job. The company that won the Oscar for the effects on Life Of Pi went bankrupt (before the award), the guy picking up the award tried to say something, but was drowned out with music (Jaws!). London is now the place, but everyone agreed that can & will change (Canada, India). One of the big problems is the way effects are priced, a company can work a month on a shot, only to have it rejected for some reason, & they have to re-do it, but don't get paid again. I thought it was of some interest because 1/ Nearly every big film is chock full of effects & 2/ It goes to show how world-wide a lot of aspects of film making are these days. That happened decades ago with film music recording, when L.A. musicians priced themselves out of the market.

 
 
 Posted:   Aug 15, 2014 - 5:51 AM   
 By:   Disco Stu   (Member)

One of the big problems is the way effects are priced, a company can work a month on a shot, only to have it rejected for some reason, & they have to re-do it, but don't get paid again. I thought it was of some interest because 1/ Nearly every big film is chock full of effects & 2/ It goes to show how world-wide a lot of aspects of film making are these days. That happened decades ago with film music recording, when L.A. musicians priced themselves out of the market.

I think the biggest problem is that CGI is very often not good. And when CGI is not good, it's lifeless. Bad physical effects still cary some soul even if they are bad.

D.S.

 
 Posted:   Aug 15, 2014 - 8:39 AM   
 By:   Solium   (Member)

The company that won the Oscar for the effects on Life Of Pi went bankrupt (before the award)


I posted a documentary about this a few months back and no one responded. The big guys in Hollywood are forcing these companies into bankruptcy.

First there's some much competition the production companies can low ball the price, basically forcing CGI companies to underbid.

Second in order for these CGI companies to stay in business they are forced to open satellite offices in foreign countries because they can pay the artists a lot less. (and avoid paying taxes) Even still they are so low balled they can't afford to stay in business.

Its the same with animation. Most Disney and Fox animation is done in India. Personally I think its sickening. What a tremendous market for Americans and one that could boost the economy.
Basically high tech jobs have gone over seas just like manufacturing jobs.

Hollywood doesn't care either as its evident they make two or three times more money in the foreign market with their films. So as long as someone has the money to see their films that's all that matters.

 
 Posted:   Aug 15, 2014 - 8:47 AM   
 By:   Solium   (Member)

Found the documentary:


 
 
 Posted:   Aug 15, 2014 - 9:38 AM   
 By:   CinemaScope   (Member)

Thanks for that Solium. Interesting & very depressing. All those talented & motivated people now looking to re-train & find other work. This - fixed bid system - is just a way for the suits from the big studios to get people to work for nothing. And then there's the tax breaks, I think London gets a lot of work because of that. It's strange, just so much effects work on films these days, & all these companies going broke. I spent half of my working life as a grader/timer in a movie film lab, that job doesn't exist anymore. And the second half as a telecine colourist, & that was great & really well paid. Not so good now, everyone on short term contracts. If I was young I'd give the movie industry a wide berth.

 
 
 Posted:   Aug 15, 2014 - 9:45 AM   
 By:   Mike_J   (Member)



I think the biggest problem is that CGI is very often not good. And when CGI is not good, it's lifeless. Bad physical effects still cary some soul even if they are bad.

D.S.


I've never really understood this argument to be honest. Clunk effects are clunky effects, whether they are sloppy greenscreen, poorly executed mattes, bad back projection or inadequate CGI.

In a historical context, its fun to groan at bad FX in otherwise great movies (Empire for example has never been he same since they fixed the transparent snow speeders) but insofar as contemporary movies are concerned I just find any poor SFX to be cringe-worthy irrespective of the type of effect on screen.

 
 Posted:   Aug 15, 2014 - 10:35 AM   
 By:   Solium   (Member)

Thanks for that Solium. Interesting & very depressing. All those talented & motivated people now looking to re-train & find other work.

NP! Glad you brought it up. People should know this stuff. It effects all of us.

 
 
 Posted:   Aug 15, 2014 - 2:08 PM   
 By:   Membership Expired   (Member)

It's how the free market economy works and has always worked.

 
 Posted:   Aug 15, 2014 - 3:33 PM   
 By:   Solium   (Member)

It's how the free market economy works and has always worked.

Not it hasn't. "Free market economy" is a misleading term. Doesn't mean taking all your jobs over to another country. Operating a business is not a right, but a privilege, and it's supposed to run for the benefit of it's society not solely for itself.

 
 
 Posted:   Aug 15, 2014 - 4:12 PM   
 By:   CinemaScope   (Member)

It's how the free market economy works and has always worked.

Not it hasn't. "Free market economy" is a misleading term. Doesn't mean taking all your jobs over to another country. Operating a business is not a right, but a privilege, and it's supposed to run for the benefit of it's society not solely for itself.


Yup, it's the same thing that's happened in American towns, where they've been ruined by closing the factories down & moving the work to Mexico (& then on to another country), to make more money for a tiny amount of people (who you can bet your life don't pay much tax). And my working life: proper jobs, holidays, pay rises, you felt you were part of something. I'm so glad I'm out of it now. It's a brave new world. Good luck!

 
 
 Posted:   Aug 15, 2014 - 11:00 PM   
 By:   Christopher Kinsinger   (Member)

Thank you, solium, for posting that riveting documentary.
Two years ago I read an interview with James Cameron. The questioning led him to expound on the VFX biz, and he said then that it was the very worst business to be in. He went on to detail every single problem that the video "LIFE AFTER PI" explains.
As a life-long lover of movie effects, I find it totally fascinating that all of these amazing CGI empires with hundreds of employees have folded, while Ray Harryhausen, an effects pioneer who did the great majority of effects work in his films all by himself, managed to prosper.
Technological progress does not necessarily equal financial prosperity.
This is a tragic state of affairs for many VFX artists.

 
 
 Posted:   Aug 18, 2014 - 11:10 AM   
 By:   Ado   (Member)

Discostu has a point, physical effects were a craft, and they were not always done by highly educated and training people, and not computer programmers. They were craft people and inventors before, creating impressive things out of everyday objects and oddities. Like Doug Trumbull lighting the Enterprise in TMP with hundreds of dental mirrors. Doug and Bran Ferren and Dysktra are indeed pretty smart guys, and pretty educated as well, but it was ingenuity and invention that made Star Wars early movies work, and early Star Trek.

When physical effects are imperfect you are still left with the impression of the marvel of it's effort and ingenuity. Whereas a CGI effect imperfectly rendered reminds you that nothing was every real about that spaceship, torpedo or whatever you are looking at, not even a model, nothing physical at all.

When I saw Captain America 2 and they were supposedly standing inside the large underground hanger on a bridge and talking in front of a supposed giant airship I was instantly aware and annoyed that it was so obviously a digital object that never existed at all. For all the intelligence in the programmers and the money spent digital objects remain basically unpersuasive and lack depth, gravity and proper texture. Interestingly, animators have been dealing with these issues over the years, so that digitally animated movies look better than ever, with the side benefit that we never consciously expect animated images to look 'real'.

The great potential and downfall of CG for live action directors is the seduction of creating images and worlds that were "impossible" before. The problem is that the liberty to create anything becomes pretty much the end, not the means.

The effects business is computer science and programming now. And anyone and everyone in computer science is almost always replaceable by the lowest bidder unless they are some kind of genius. London should not expect the effects work remain for long.

 
 Posted:   Aug 18, 2014 - 12:31 PM   
 By:   Octoberman   (Member)

My 2 cents is that contemporary CGI artists spend WAY too much time and effort making sure that every frame looks like a painting. They have no choice because essentially that's exactly what they are--paintings.
But they frequently demonstrate that they know jack-squat about how something moves or breathes or whathaveyou. This is exactly why Harryhausen's work survives--he studied such things.
And because he worked with actual objects, he never had to worry about how lifelike the shadows of such things appeared--they existed in reality during the process. Digital painters have to guess, and that's another thing they frequently do badly if they are creating from scratch and not just copying from life.

 
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