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 Posted:   Jul 24, 2010 - 11:54 PM   
 By:   mulan98   (Member)

Exactly. Much as I have loved the discussion..I think it got a wee bit side-tracked? I had hoped someone might notice my veiled pley for help searching for PRIDE AND PASSION and QUO VADIS scores......

As has been mentioned above, by far better qualified people than myself, Tadlow's ALAMO recording is quite the most extraordinary reconstruction and recording of a classic score I've ever heard. If anyone out there still has reservations PLEASE give it a try.

The style of the above score makes one think that Tadlow would do a wonderful job on THE PRIDE AND THE PASSION. Again, if anyone has or knows of the resources to help James with the research it would be wonderful if they would get in touch.

 
 
 Posted:   Jul 25, 2010 - 12:05 AM   
 By:   Ed Nassour   (Member)

Exactly. Much as I have loved the discussion..I think it got a wee bit side-tracked? I had hoped someone might notice my veiled pley for help searching for PRIDE AND PASSION and QUO VADIS scores......

As has been mentioned above, by far better qualified people than myself, Tadlow's ALAMO recording is quite the most extraordinary reconstruction and recording of a classic score I've ever heard. If anyone out there still has reservations PLEASE give it a try.

The style of the above score makes one think that Tadlow would do a wonderful job on THE PRIDE AND THE PASSION. Again, if anyone has or knows of the resources to help James with the research it would be wonderful if they would get in touch.

There is just two gripes I have with "The Alamo" redo. And that's the soloist trumpet is just not played as well as it is on the soundtrack. My second complaint is with the third track on the first CD which begins as music for the prologue. In the film, Tiomkin begins it with the stings plucking a single note. Then Tiomkin plays the beginning of the cue pianissimo until the strings swell up dramatically. The new version lacks the string plucking and the cue is played more fortissimo.

Anyone who has the new CD set, listen to the trumpet solo and then to how the music is played on the soundtrack as it segues from the main title to the prologue:



Other than those two minor things, the set is superb.

 
 
 Posted:   Jul 25, 2010 - 4:39 AM   
 By:   JamesFitz   (Member)

Much as I hate to disagree with Ed....as I respect all his comments...but at least our new solo trumpet does play in tune and we did correct all the wrong notes (over 1000) to be found on the original! Plus we also (hopefully) corrected all the untidy playing you can hear on the original. For example even on the overture some of the orchestra are going with the conductor...whose rubato could be most extreme...while some of the orchestra are just forging ahead no matter what the guy on the podium is doing!

That reminds me of one of my favourite conductor jokes:

What's the difference between a bull and and orchestra?

 
 
 Posted:   Jul 25, 2010 - 9:44 AM   
 By:   Ed Nassour   (Member)

Much as I hate to disagree with Ed....as I respect all his comments...but at least our new solo trumpet does play in tune and we did correct all the wrong notes (over 1000) to be found on the original! Plus we also (hopefully) corrected all the untidy playing you can hear on the original. For example even on the overture some of the orchestra are going with the conductor...whose rubato could be most extreme...while some of the orchestra are just forging ahead no matter what the guy on the podium is doing!

That reminds me of one of my favourite conductor jokes:

What's the difference between a bull and and orchestra?


That one is a hoot!

I like this one:

What's the definition of a minor second?
Two oboists playing in perfect unison.

The trumpet player you used definitely plays in tune with the orchestra. That's not my complaint. He just seems to not play it as colorfully as whoever did it on the original soundtrack recording. He captured the flavor of a Mexican trumpet player heard in a Mariachi group. The Prague concert player just doesn't have it in that regard. This seems to be true of many European orchestras attempting to play music indigenous to the Americas. Don't get me wrong. The set is simply splendid. I just have the two small complaints.

But you must agree with me that the string pluck is missing at the head of the 'Forward' cue.

The biggest problem with the manner in which Tiomkin worked was he would demand his orchestrators work his score for a huge orchestra and then on the recording stage whittle it down to size. Being a former concert pianist, Tiomkin composed pianistically and then used a battery of orchestrators to turn it into a workable score. I remember David Raksin telling of doing orchestration for Tiomkin on a difficult cue that had stymied other orchestrators on a project which was "The Road Back," a sort of sequel to "All Quiet on the Western Front." Tiomkin had written it in way down in the base register. David transposed it up a couple of octaves. Then on the Universal scoring stage when it was played, the story goes that Leopold Stokowski wandered in, heard it and then congratulated Tiomkin for writing a brilliant piece of music. Afterwards Tiomkin strolled over to David saying, "Boychick, that was fine, but it would have been better had you left it as I wrote it."

 
 
 Posted:   Jul 25, 2010 - 2:17 PM   
 By:   Ed Nassour   (Member)

we did correct all the wrong notes (over 1000) to be found on the original! Plus we also (hopefully) corrected all the untidy playing you can hear on the original.

I wonder if some of those wrong notes were caught during the soundtrack session and then only marked on the parts. Did you have access to any or all of the parts?

I've sat in on numerous scoring sessions where wrong notes were discovered, usually by the composer/conductor. Sometimes he'd make the correction on his conductor's score. A lot of the times the orchestrator would make the correction on the score they were following. I remember one Jerry Fielding session at Universal where an exasperated Fielding discovered lots of wrong notes on an exceptionally fine, complex score he wrote for an episode of "The Bionic Woman."

When I think back to those days I realize there were many extremely talented composers working on what was basically dreck. Leonard Rosenman scored almost every episode of "Marcus Welby, M.D." Gil Mellé who was extraordinarily talented did mostly TV work.

 
 
 Posted:   Jul 25, 2010 - 11:39 PM   
 By:   JamesFitz   (Member)

we did correct all the wrong notes (over 1000) to be found on the original! Plus we also (hopefully) corrected all the untidy playing you can hear on the original.

I wonder if some of those wrong notes were caught during the soundtrack session and then only marked on the parts. Did you have access to any or all of the parts?

I've sat in on numerous scoring sessions where wrong notes were discovered, usually by the composer/conductor. Sometimes he'd make the correction on his conductor's score. A lot of the times the orchestrator would make the correction on the score they were following. I remember one Jerry Fielding session at Universal where an exasperated Fielding discovered lots of wrong notes on an exceptionally fine, complex score he wrote for an episode of "The Bionic Woman."

When I think back to those days I realize there were many extremely talented composers working on what was basically dreck. Leonard Rosenman scored almost every episode of "Marcus Welby, M.D." Gil Mellé who was extraordinarily talented did mostly TV work.


Some of the wrong notes were of course caught at the original sessions...but most were not. So now at least you have the right notes, where as before you had "the right notes but not necessarily in the right order!"

 
 
 Posted:   Jul 26, 2010 - 3:04 AM   
 By:   clipton   (Member)

Anyone know if Hugo Friedhofer composed music for Brando's nearly three hour long initial cut of One Eyed Jacks? Or, did Hugo come in after the studio had drastically cut the film down to the current running time? It would be great if there is additional music that could one day be released on cd.

 
 
 Posted:   Jul 27, 2010 - 7:57 AM   
 By:   Rozsaphile   (Member)

I think PRIDE was the cover story for the very last issue of Film Music Notes in 1958. I forget whether they had notes by the composer or an essay about the score. Often there were both. I discovered FMN some years later and eagerly devoured the back issues in the New York Public Library. I can still recall my sense of disbelief when I learned that the magazine had ceased publication -- just on the eve of the greatest scores by Rozsa, Newman, Herrmann, North, and Bernstein. I don't think another film music publication would emerge until the 1970s.

 
 
 Posted:   Jul 27, 2010 - 9:31 AM   
 By:   Niall from Ireland   (Member)

Anyone know if Hugo Friedhofer composed music for Brando's nearly three hour long initial cut of One Eyed Jacks? Or, did Hugo come in after the studio had drastically cut the film down to the current running time? It would be great if there is additional music that could one day be released on cd.

Hello Clipton,
Just briefly (as I'm in work!) I remember reading in Linda Danly's highly informative book, Hugo Friedhofer: The Best Years of His Life: A Hollywood Master of Music for the Movies, that Hugo mentioned that there is about 25-30 mins more music written for the score (and recorded I think ?) than what remains in the released film print! Get this book if you can as it contains an excellent account of Friedhofer's early involvement with Brando's masterpiece, that's how the film appeared to Hugo, a masterpiece, until the studio got the scissors out and butchered it!

 
 
 Posted:   Jul 27, 2010 - 12:22 PM   
 By:   Ed Nassour   (Member)

Anyone know if Hugo Friedhofer composed music for Brando's nearly three hour long initial cut of One Eyed Jacks? Or, did Hugo come in after the studio had drastically cut the film down to the current running time? It would be great if there is additional music that could one day be released on cd.

Hello Clipton,
Just briefly (as I'm in work!) I remember reading in Linda Danly's highly informative book, Hugo Friedhofer: The Best Years of His Life: A Hollywood Master of Music for the Movies, that Hugo mentioned that there is about 25-30 mins more music written for the score (and recorded I think ?) than what remains in the released film print! Get this book if you can as it contains an excellent account of Friedhofer's early involvement with Brando's masterpiece, that's how the film appeared to Hugo, a masterpiece, until the studio got the scissors out and butchered it!


Charles Lang who photographed "One Eyed Jacks" told me the original cut ran nearly 5 hours. Brando edited it down to three hours and then left after Paramount ordered him to reduce it substantially. Paramount then cut the film down to 141 minutes. And at that length it's still too long.

It's my understanding that Friedhofer scored to a much longer version and was then forced to trim quite a bit of what he composed to fit the new cut. A very bad transition occurred when the main title cue ended and there was a sudden drop of the volume where the music just faded down suddenly only to suddenly fade up. That was in all the original release prints. In later video versions it was fixed.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3904356691955446551#

I understand the film has fallen into public domain which is why it's not available from Paramount Home Video. Their last official release was on laser disc. As of today there are eight different DVDs. Most of the DVDs were taken off the laser which is why the quality is so bad.

What's tragic is right before the film fell into public domain, Paramount had done a marvelous new transfer of the film. So that master sits in storage.

As was his custom, Friedhofor relinquished conducting duties to someone else, in this case to Paramount's Irvin Talbot. The soundtrack performance is impeccable. I wonder if Paramount saved the three-track scoring masters. Joe???

"One Eyed Jacks" was the second to last Paramount feature to be filmed in Vistavision. The last being "My Six Loves" in 1963.

 
 
 Posted:   Jul 28, 2010 - 8:19 AM   
 By:   Niall from Ireland   (Member)

Anyone know if Hugo Friedhofer composed music for Brando's nearly three hour long initial cut of One Eyed Jacks? Or, did Hugo come in after the studio had drastically cut the film down to the current running time? It would be great if there is additional music that could one day be released on cd.

Hello Clipton,
Just briefly (as I'm in work!) I remember reading in Linda Danly's highly informative book, Hugo Friedhofer: The Best Years of His Life: A Hollywood Master of Music for the Movies, that Hugo mentioned that there is about 25-30 mins more music written for the score (and recorded I think ?) than what remains in the released film print! Get this book if you can as it contains an excellent account of Friedhofer's early involvement with Brando's masterpiece, that's how the film appeared to Hugo, a masterpiece, until the studio got the scissors out and butchered it!


Charles Lang who photographed "One Eyed Jacks" told me the original cut ran nearly 5 hours. Brando edited it down to three hours and then left after Paramount ordered him to reduce it substantially. Paramount then cut the film down to 141 minutes. And at that length it's still too long.

It's my understanding that Friedhofer scored to a much longer version and was then forced to trim quite a bit of what he composed to fit the new cut. A very bad transition occurred when the main title cue ended and there was a sudden drop of the volume where the music just faded down suddenly only to suddenly fade up. That was in all the original release prints. In later video versions it was fixed.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3904356691955446551#

I understand the film has fallen into public domain which is why it's not available from Paramount Home Video. Their last official release was on laser disc. As of today there are eight different DVDs. Most of the DVDs were taken off the laser which is why the quality is so bad.

What's tragic is right before the film fell into public domain, Paramount had done a marvelous new transfer of the film. So that master sits in storage.

As was his custom, Friedhofor relinquished conducting duties to someone else, in this case to Paramount's Irvin Talbot. The soundtrack performance is impeccable. I wonder if Paramount saved the three-track scoring masters. Joe???

"One Eyed Jacks" was the second to last Paramount feature to be filmed in Vistavision. The last being "My Six Loves" in 1963.


Ed, Thank you for all this fascinating information. It would be wonderful indeed if Joe Capps could give us some positive news as regards the survival of "the three-track scoring masters" I desperately hope that these still exist and that we might someday see a newly remastered expnded soundtrack release.

 
 
 Posted:   Jul 29, 2010 - 5:42 AM   
 By:   Rozsaphile   (Member)

Brando's masterpiece, that's how the film appeared to Hugo, a masterpiece, until the studio got the scissors out and butchered it!

Composers (and others) sometimes get carried away when talking about "the one that got away." Remember how Jerry Goldsmith used to sigh about LEGEND being his finest score ever? Is there anybody else out there who judged the uncut JACKS to be a "masterpiece"? I saw the film only in a revival house (New York's Film Forum, where the audiences are usually fairly sophisticated), and I remember a lot of laughter in the wrong places.

 
 
 Posted:   Jul 29, 2010 - 7:24 AM   
 By:   Doug Raynes   (Member)

Brando's masterpiece, that's how the film appeared to Hugo, a masterpiece, until the studio got the scissors out and butchered it!

Composers (and others) sometimes get carried away when talking about "the one that got away." Remember how Jerry Goldsmith used to sigh about LEGEND being his finest score ever? Is there anybody else out there who judged the uncut JACKS to be a "masterpiece"? I saw the film only in a revival house (New York's Film Forum, where the audiences are usually fairly sophisticated), and I remember a lot of laughter in the wrong places.


I'm trying to think where the laughs could possibly be! It was a fairly serious and, at times, sadistic western.

I'm always surprised when I read how much longer the original cut was because the film seems to flow very well. It's difficult to figure where all the cuts could have been made unless massive chunks of film were cut prior to Brando's early prison escape. Still, I'd have loved to have seen the uncut version - it's one of my favourite films, as is the score.

 
 
 Posted:   Jul 29, 2010 - 8:38 AM   
 By:   pp312   (Member)

I'm trying to think where the laughs could possibly be! It was a fairly serious and, at times, sadistic western.


No, I can't see where "Jacks" would have audiences chortling either. Unless they were into whipping and crushed hands.

In any case it couldn't be funnier than Caesar's assassination. (Sorry, Rozsaphile smile ).

 
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