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Posted: |
Oct 26, 2011 - 9:20 AM
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By: |
Doug Raynes
(Member)
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I suspect that the complete "Fall Of The Roman Empire" surfaced in the SONY vault too, but the release has been delayed by LLL so it doesn't compete with the marvelous Tadlow release.
Not so, as stated in the previous thread:
.....Wow! Great news. I had thought 55 Days At Peking was going to be a straight reissue of the Columbia LP. So where has this extra material come from? It's always been assumed that none of the original tracks for the Bronston films (recorded in London?) had survived.....
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Though the original music masters on fullcoat magnetic 35mm film HAD been destroyed or trashed years ago, I heard through the filmmusic grapevine that a dub-off stereo tape copy of everything had been sent to Columbia Records to make up the original soundtrack album in the early 60s. Apparently, after making up their album, they vaulted everything and it's been sitting there for nearly 50 years, unsearched for. Hopefully, we'll have the complete and correct story iterated in the liner notes for this release.
After this discovery, there will probably be searches made in this and other record company vaults for other tape masters which might have been deposited in the same way at the time of the makeup of the original albums, but I doubt if this kind of thing will happen very often where the entire mass of material still exists.
Still, with the opening up of Sony/Columbia/BMG, you never know what unexpected treasures might be found.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
You are correct, sir. Unlike FALL, the entire score was over in the Sony vaults just waiting to be rediscovered. We were very fortunate to find this. If I recall, Lukas was looking into this some time ago, but for some reason it never happened.
With the FALL elements, all they had was the original master Tiomkin and Co. did way back in the day. It sounds incredible and only makes me wish they had the entire thing like they did for Peking. As stated previously, we did add some extra Bonus material that was found on the Cloud 9 release, but it doesn't amount to much.
However, we have that awesome new re-recording so no need for tears.
MV
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UPDATE:
Autographed copies of Uncharted 3 are SOLD OUT. Thanks, guys! You made Mr. Edmonson a happy chap -- Order #'s: 42574 - 42861
Also, slight change in shipping plans:
Both titles will start shipping out on Monday, October 31.
MV
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Posted: |
Oct 26, 2011 - 5:35 PM
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By: |
manderley
(Member)
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......I suspect that the complete "Fall Of The Roman Empire" surfaced in the SONY vault too, but the release has been delayed by LLL so it doesn't compete with the marvelous Tadlow release.
I wonder if The Guns Of Navarone is in there somewhere (in a dark corner). I just ordered it, that & The Egyptian are the only soundtracks I've ordered from America this year (so far).
It would be great if Roman was as complete - but I understand not.....
You're all forgetting a crucial element here, regarding the 55 DAYS AT PEKING and the FALL OF THE ROMAN EMPIRE music released originally on Columbia Records:
55 DAYS AT PEKING was a soundtrack lp release, and that is why the original soundtrack elements were originally dubbed-down to dupe stereo tapes by Bronston and shipped to Columbia (Sony). These soundtrack elements released on La La Land survive because they are a second generation dub off the original mag fullcoat film masters---which were destroyed years ago.
On the other hand, FALL OF THE ROMAN EMPIRE was a re-recording and thus, no original soundtrack material would have been originally shipped to Columbia---only the re-recording master.
In this case, the (presumed) first generation FOTRE re-recording master survives and is held by Sony.
And so, the difference is, of course, that though the original FOTRE mag fullcoat film masters were destroyed, just like the 55 DAYs sessions, a soundtrack version of FOTRE was never planned---only a re-recording---and so there was no need for dub-down dupes of FOTRE being made or being shipped to Columbia Records. Too bad for archival history.
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Posted: |
Oct 27, 2011 - 2:26 AM
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By: |
Bob DiMucci
(Member)
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55 DAYS AT PEKING was a soundtrack lp release, . . .On the other hand, FALL OF THE ROMAN EMPIRE was a re-recording . . . a soundtrack version of FOTRE was never planned---only a re-recording
This is news to me. I always had assumed that the “FOTRE” LP was from the original soundtracks. Columbia and Tiomkin certainly went out of their way to confuse the issue.
Both the FOTRE LP and the 55 DAYS LP are labeled as being an “original soundtrack recording.”
The FOTRE LP says it contains “Music Composed and Conducted by Dimitri Tiomkin, Conducting a Symphony Orchestra of 110 of England’s Finest Musicians.”
Most re-recordings were of U.S.-recorded scores that were subsequently re-recorded overseas (to save money on re-use fees) or with smaller U.S. ensembles (to save money on re-use fees). So was FOTRE originally recorded in the U.S. by Tiomkin, who then went to England for the re-recording? If FOTRE was originally recorded in England, Columbia certainly didn’t stint on the forces for a second English re-recording, so I don’t see any cost savings there.
If it is a re-recording, in the liner notes to the Columbia LP, Tiomkin muddies the issue by writing the following:
"A few days ago I finished recording the score of Samuel Bronston's THE FALL OF THE ROMAN EMPIRE and now I am starting to work on the album of sound tracks from the picture for Columbia Records. According to the record company's instructions I must select representative sound tracks from my original score and put them in such a sequence that the audience viewing the picture will remember, when listening to the record, the particular scene in the film.
"Usually when I make an album from my sound tracks it doesn't represent any special effort or dilemma but with ROMAN EMPIRE I was not really sure what to choose from the material I have.
" For this picture I wrote approximately 2 1/2 hours of fragments, themes, development and mood pieces and now I am obliged to choose just 40 minutes from them--and yet make an album representative in every possible way of my score for the picture."
Tiomkin’s loose use of the term “sound tracks” certainly could allow one to conclude that he was selecting tracks for the LP from music that had already been recorded, and not selecting sections of his score to re-record for the LP.
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55 DAYS AT PEKING was a soundtrack lp release, . . .On the other hand, FALL OF THE ROMAN EMPIRE was a re-recording . . . a soundtrack version of FOTRE was never planned---only a re-recording
This is news to me. I always had assumed that the “FOTRE” LP was from the original soundtracks. Columbia and Tiomkin certainly went out of their way to confuse the issue.
Both the FOTRE LP and the 55 DAYS LP are labeled as being an “original soundtrack recording.”
The FOTRE LP says it contains “Music Composed and Conducted by Dimitri Tiomkin, Conducting a Symphony Orchestra of 110 of England’s Finest Musicians.”
Most re-recordings were of U.S.-recorded scores that were subsequently re-recorded overseas (to save money on re-use fees) or with smaller U.S. ensembles (to save money on re-use fees). So was FOTRE originally recorded in the U.S. by Tiomkin, who then went to England for the re-recording? If FOTRE was originally recorded in England, Columbia certainly didn’t stint on the forces for a second English re-recording, so I don’t see any cost savings there.
If it is a re-recording, in the liner notes to the Columbia LP, Tiomkin muddies the issue by writing the following:
"A few days ago I finished recording the score of Samuel Bronston's THE FALL OF THE ROMAN EMPIRE and now I am starting to work on the album of sound tracks from the picture for Columbia Records. According to the record company's instructions I must select representative sound tracks from my original score and put them in such a sequence that the audience viewing the picture will remember, when listening to the record, the particular scene in the film.
"Usually when I make an album from my sound tracks it doesn't represent any special effort or dilemma but with ROMAN EMPIRE I was not really sure what to choose from the material I have.
" For this picture I wrote approximately 2 1/2 hours of fragments, themes, development and mood pieces and now I am obliged to choose just 40 minutes from them--and yet make an album representative in every possible way of my score for the picture."
Tiomkin’s loose use of the term “sound tracks” certainly could allow one to conclude that he was selecting tracks for the LP from music that had already been recorded, and not selecting sections of his score to re-record for the LP.
FOTRE is the original recording, not a re-recording. The master LP was delivered to Sony many moons ago already assembled by Tiomkin and Company, thus the reason why the entire score was not in their vaults like Peking.
MV
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Posted: |
Oct 28, 2011 - 2:01 AM
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By: |
manderley
(Member)
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It's always fun to have a little chit-chat about the recording of a score......so let's muddy the waters still more regarding the "original soundtrack recording of FALL OF THE ROMAN EMPIRE" on Columbia Records.....
Yesterday, several people made the following comments.....
......I suspect that the complete "Fall Of The Roman Empire" surfaced in the SONY vault too, but the release has been delayed by LLL so it doesn't compete with the marvelous Tadlow release.
I wonder if The Guns Of Navarone is in there somewhere (in a dark corner). I just ordered it, that & The Egyptian are the only soundtracks I've ordered from America this year (so far).
It would be great if Roman was as complete - but I understand not.....
Soon, I jumped in and said:
.....You're all forgetting a crucial element here, regarding the 55 DAYS AT PEKING and the FALL OF THE ROMAN EMPIRE music released originally on Columbia Records:
55 DAYS AT PEKING was a soundtrack lp release, and that is why the original soundtrack elements were originally dubbed-down to dupe stereo tapes by Bronston and shipped to Columbia (Sony). These soundtrack elements released on La La Land survive because they are a second generation dub off the original mag fullcoat film masters---which were destroyed years ago.
On the other hand, FALL OF THE ROMAN EMPIRE was a re-recording and thus, no original soundtrack material would have been originally shipped to Columbia---only the re-recording master.
In this case, the (presumed) first generation FOTRE re-recording master survives and is held by Sony.
And so, the difference is, of course, that though the original FOTRE mag fullcoat film masters were destroyed, just like the 55 DAYs sessions, a soundtrack version of FOTRE was never planned---only a re-recording---and so there was no need for dub-down dupes of FOTRE being made or being shipped to Columbia Records. Too bad for archival history.....
Within a short time, Bob DiMucci posted the following:
.....This is news to me. I always had assumed that the “FOTRE” LP was from the original soundtracks. Columbia and Tiomkin certainly went out of their way to confuse the issue.
Both the FOTRE LP and the 55 DAYS LP are labeled as being an “original soundtrack recording.”
The FOTRE LP says it contains “Music Composed and Conducted by Dimitri Tiomkin, Conducting a Symphony Orchestra of 110 of England’s Finest Musicians.”
Most re-recordings were of U.S.-recorded scores that were subsequently re-recorded overseas (to save money on re-use fees) or with smaller U.S. ensembles (to save money on re-use fees). So was FOTRE originally recorded in the U.S. by Tiomkin, who then went to England for the re-recording? If FOTRE was originally recorded in England, Columbia certainly didn’t stint on the forces for a second English re-recording, so I don’t see any cost savings there.
If it is a re-recording, in the liner notes to the Columbia LP, Tiomkin muddies the issue by writing the following:
"A few days ago I finished recording the score of Samuel Bronston's THE FALL OF THE ROMAN EMPIRE and now I am starting to work on the album of sound tracks from the picture for Columbia Records. According to the record company's instructions I must select representative sound tracks from my original score and put them in such a sequence that the audience viewing the picture will remember, when listening to the record, the particular scene in the film.
"Usually when I make an album from my sound tracks it doesn't represent any special effort or dilemma but with ROMAN EMPIRE I was not really sure what to choose from the material I have.
" For this picture I wrote approximately 2 1/2 hours of fragments, themes, development and mood pieces and now I am obliged to choose just 40 minutes from them--and yet make an album representative in every possible way of my score for the picture."
Tiomkin’s loose use of the term “sound tracks” certainly could allow one to conclude that he was selecting tracks for the LP from music that had already been recorded, and not selecting sections of his score to re-record for the LP.....
Then La La Land's leader, Mr MV, stepped in and made the following statement.....
......FOTRE is the original recording, not a re-recording. The master LP was delivered to Sony many moons ago already assembled by Tiomkin and Company, thus the reason why the entire score was not in their vaults like Peking......
After reading that, I thought "Hmmmmm......very interesting!" The reason for my extreme interest in this was that for 40+ years I firmly believed the Columbia LP WAS the original soundtrack recording. Then, in 1991, came something which changed my mind completely.
That "something" was David Wishart/Cloud Nine's CD release of "More Music from THE FALL OF THE ROMAN EMPIRE." David had attempted to find the original session masters for the film, but, unfortunately was left with whatever he could capture off the stereo music/effects track, as well as a mono tape of selected cues which had surfaced. These elements are what he used to put together the "More Music from THE FALL OF THE ROMAN EMPIRE" cd. He had no license, or elements from the original Columbia LP.
David was on this project, now 20 years ago, and, unfortunately, is no longer with us to clarify the details of his project in person.
However, if you can trust his written comments about his recording, here were, to me, the pertinent statements which changed MY mind:
.....ABOUT THIS RECORDING: Upon completing the score for THE FALL OF THE ROMAN EMPIRE in 1964, Dimitri Tiomkin SELECTED, RE-ARRANGED AND RECORDED REPRESENTATIVE PIECES FOR INCLUSION ON A COMMERCIAL RECORD ALBUM (available as a compact disc on Varese Sarabande Records No. VSD-5228). However, many sterling sequences were omitted from this collection AND SOME OF THE NEW ADAPTATIONS DEVIATED MARKEDLY FROM THE SCORE ON THE FILM TRACK.
And, later.....
......Much of the music on this album is being heard on disc for the first time--- WITH OTHER MORE FAMILIAR PIECES BEING PRESENTED IN THE RELATIVELY FRESH GUISE OF THEIR ORIGINAL SOUNDTRACK PERFORMANCES. .....
So there you have it. Make of it what you will.
Years ago I sat down and listened to the original soundtrack album on Varese and David's "More Music" album track-by-track, and I was convinced that they were different recordings, too, and, after this listen, I was stunned that I had accepted the original Columbia album as the "soundtrack" for all those years.
You all probably need to sit down with the original Columbia/Varese "soundtrack" album and the Wishart/Cloud Nine "soundtrack" album, listen very carefully, and make up your own minds.
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Posted: |
Oct 28, 2011 - 3:18 AM
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By: |
manderley
(Member)
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......It is a puzzlement . . . "a mono tape of selected cues which had surfaced." Wishart never really posited what he thought this tape was, but the implication was that it was of the original recording sessions. And while there may be differences between this tape and the LP, isn't the more relevant comparison between the LP and the film itself? Which tracks more closely match those in the film, the ones from the Columbia LP or the ones from Wishart's mono tape?......
The "mono" tape was a tape dub off some of the original soundtrack sessions apparently made for some sort of television documentary or promotion during the '60s period of the films release. Virtually all of Wishart's "More Music" cd is of the original soundtrack elements, and are either stereo or mono depending on his originating source---the stereo/effects track or the mono session tape dub.
If you understand that he started with the original stereo/effects track as the basis for his CD, then where he couldn't use this track because of intrusive sound effects, he filled in, IF HE HAD THEM, with cues here and there from the mono soundtrack sessions dub. But he was extremely limited with this mono tape as a backup. I have heard other cues from it that he didn't use, because the quality of the tape is generally poor. It is also massively incomplete.
As for comparisons, we are simply comparing the entirety of Wishart's CD (mono or stereo) with the entirety of the Columbia LP.
Generally speaking, Wishart's CD is different in content from the Columbia LP, but where there are occasional cues which appear in some similar form on Wishart's CD AND on the Columbia LP, they are different in sound, orchestration, or arrangement from each other.
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A puzzlement indeed ! For my part, I first got the Cloud Nine release then the PEG reissue of the album and when I compared the two I couldn't hear any differences between them, outside of the sound quality. So I had come to the conclusion that the re-recording story had been invented by Wishart so that he could duplicate tracks that appeared on the original album (exclusive to Sony at the time, I guess.)
I fully agree with you here! When I got the Wishart CD release in 1991, I also mada a comparison at that time with the album tracks (of which 6 are also on the Cloud Nine CD) and could detcect no big difference. Therefore I had always wondered why Wishart had made this statement that the original album should have been a re-recording. Maybe he indeed had done it only for legal reasons?
The playing and instrumentation is absolutely the same on those so-called "original" pieces and those from the LP album. I have just listened to the tracks again on both CDs (altogether about 15 minutes) and I still can't hear any difference. What is a bit different - for example with "Profundo"/"The Funeral of Marcus Aurelius" or "The Roman Forum" - is only the mixing of the recording so that on the Cloud Nine CD brass and percussion in these two tracks are just a little bit more prominent and some instruments can be better heard on the one CD than on the other and vice versa. But that's all and the tracks are from one and the same original recording!
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