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Posted: |
Aug 27, 2015 - 6:46 AM
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By: |
Amer Zahid
(Member)
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Allow me to throw in a kind word for Return of the 7, the Ryko release, which is for all intents and purposes the original Magnificent Seven score note for note, conducted by EB himself, but this time in stereo. I don't love the excessive echo, but it is a punchy recording and is the one I typically listen to when I get the fever for a Mag 7 listen. I do like the Sedares as well, even with the slight slowing of the tempo, as I think it does the score justice for the most part. I gave up on the RNSO recordings before I got to Mag 7, as they all sounded to me like they were recorded in a Boeing 747 hangar. I almost never listen to the original tracks, I am ashamed to admit...
If there is anyone who throws caution for re-recordings, its Dana. But, I agree on the fact that most (if not all of) RSNO recordings tend to sound this way. Some of them like PATTON & TORN CURTAIN are unfortunate but others like SUPERMAN, MARNIE, VERTIGO stand out in a good way.
Im curious about your take on the the news Tadlow version of OBSESSION. In my opinion the sound quality is beyond just good. Its dynamic and vibrantly alive.
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Posted: |
Aug 27, 2015 - 9:38 AM
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By: |
Dana Wilcox
(Member)
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Allow me to throw in a kind word for Return of the 7, the Ryko release, which is for all intents and purposes the original Magnificent Seven score note for note, conducted by EB himself, but this time in stereo. I don't love the excessive echo, but it is a punchy recording and is the one I typically listen to when I get the fever for a Mag 7 listen. I do like the Sedares as well, even with the slight slowing of the tempo, as I think it does the score justice for the most part. I gave up on the RNSO recordings before I got to Mag 7, as they all sounded to me like they were recorded in a Boeing 747 hangar. I almost never listen to the original tracks, I am ashamed to admit...
If there is anyone who throws caution for re-recordings, its Dana. But, I agree on the fact that most (if not all of) RSNO recordings tend to sound this way. Some of them like PATTON & TORN CURTAIN are unfortunate but others like SUPERMAN, MARNIE, VERTIGO stand out in a good way.
Im curious about your take on the the news Tadlow version of OBSESSION. In my opinion the sound quality is beyond just good. Its dynamic and vibrantly alive.
Hi Amer -- long time! As you may have noticed, I haven't been a great fan of the Tadlow "new recordings" on the whole, especially of scores that are well known to my ear. I do own a few of them nevertheless, including EL CID, EXODUS and QUO VADIS. I am a Herrmann fan most definitely but was not familiar with the OBSESSION score. Given the fact that there were almost simultaneous releases of the OST (2-disc on Music Box Records) and the newly recorded version from Tadlow, I followed my gut and got the Music Box. So, bottom line, I haven't heard the Tadlow OBSESSION. I'll concede "sound quality," in the technical sense, to probably most newly recorded versions of film scores, but for me there is so much more than that to enjoying a film score (or any music, for that matter). Heavy reverb drives me bananas -- though I will grant that some of my tried and true favorites from certain eras suffer from the same disease. Nothing I can do about those. But by and large, I'll take the originals, just as a matter of personal taste. I like to hear the composer's take on best conveying the drama on film, and someone else's (even the composer's) "reimagining" of the music years later doesn't hold a lot of interest for me. (I can see from your comments in the VERTIGO thread that we are on opposite ends of the spectrum on that matter!) James Conlon's re-recording of the VERTIGO score is the only one I have that truly knocks my socks off, as it combines great sound quality with a slavish adherence to the original tempo and feel of the score. New recordings (with a few exceptions) by and large haven't concerned themselves much with fidelity to original sources.
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Posted: |
Aug 27, 2015 - 11:50 PM
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By: |
Amer Zahid
(Member)
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Allow me to throw in a kind word for Return of the 7, the Ryko release, which is for all intents and purposes the original Magnificent Seven score note for note, conducted by EB himself, but this time in stereo. I don't love the excessive echo, but it is a punchy recording and is the one I typically listen to when I get the fever for a Mag 7 listen. I do like the Sedares as well, even with the slight slowing of the tempo, as I think it does the score justice for the most part. I gave up on the RNSO recordings before I got to Mag 7, as they all sounded to me like they were recorded in a Boeing 747 hangar. I almost never listen to the original tracks, I am ashamed to admit...
If there is anyone who throws caution for re-recordings, its Dana. But, I agree on the fact that most (if not all of) RSNO recordings tend to sound this way. Some of them like PATTON & TORN CURTAIN are unfortunate but others like SUPERMAN, MARNIE, VERTIGO stand out in a good way.
Im curious about your take on the the news Tadlow version of OBSESSION. In my opinion the sound quality is beyond just good. Its dynamic and vibrantly alive.
Hi Amer -- long time! As you may have noticed, I haven't been a great fan of the Tadlow "new recordings" on the whole, especially of scores that are well known to my ear. I do own a few of them nevertheless, including EL CID, EXODUS and QUO VADIS. I am a Herrmann fan most definitely but was not familiar with the OBSESSION score. Given the fact that there were almost simultaneous releases of the OST (2-disc on Music Box Records) and the newly recorded version from Tadlow, I followed my gut and got the Music Box. So, bottom line, I haven't heard the Tadlow OBSESSION. I'll concede "sound quality," in the technical sense, to probably most newly recorded versions of film scores, but for me there is so much more than that to enjoying a film score (or any music, for that matter). Heavy reverb drives me bananas -- though I will grant that some of my tried and true favorites from certain eras suffer from the same disease. Nothing I can do about those. But by and large, I'll take the originals, just as a matter of personal taste. I like to hear the composer's take on best conveying the drama on film, and someone else's (even the composer's) "reimagining" of the music years later doesn't hold a lot of interest for me. (I can see from your comments in the VERTIGO thread that we are on opposite ends of the spectrum on that matter!) James Conlon's re-recording of the VERTIGO score is the only one I have that truly knocks my socks off, as it combines great sound quality with a slavish adherence to the original tempo and feel of the score. New recordings (with a few exceptions) by and large haven't concerned themselves much with fidelity to original sources.
Dana, Same here I got the Music Box set and I was totally taken by the presentation and the archival preservation of OBSESSION. To say the least it was a thrilling presentation and even loved the new remastering of the OST on disc 2. I had to allow a months break before I opened the Tadlow recording. And as you know me, I have vicious appetite for re-recordings as along (as they do it right) Tadlow's OBSESSION is a winner on most accounts of merit. There may be a few different nuances and tempos but for the most it makes for a breathtaking experience (herrmann wasnt in his prime when he conducted it so in the new recording those flaws are easily mitigated) The digital sound and in ambience of 5.1 blu ray in particular makes for another aural experience. The three VERTIGO recordings(Mathesion, McNeely and Conlon) are unique on their own merits. The choice of nuances, tempos and conducting vary across the board and its not a bad thing specially if you love the subject score in the first place. So if you liked Tadlow's EL CID, EXODUS and QUO VADIS then probably you wont go wrong with OBSESSION. Unless its too early for you to jump right in but do get it.Its an experience.
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If there is anyone who throws caution for re-recordings, its Dana. But, I agree on the fact that most (if not all of) RSNO recordings tend to sound this way. Some of them like PATTON & TORN CURTAIN are unfortunate but others like SUPERMAN, MARNIE, VERTIGO stand out in a good way.
Their recent Intrada Miki Rozsa 'Red House' album was a new ball game. It's all to do with the venue and the mixing, and the miking. Not the orchestra.
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Posted: |
Aug 28, 2015 - 11:19 PM
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By: |
Dana Wilcox
(Member)
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Hi Amer -- long time! As you may have noticed, I haven't been a great fan of the Tadlow "new recordings" on the whole, especially of scores that are well known to my ear. I do own a few of them nevertheless, including EL CID, EXODUS and QUO VADIS. I am a Herrmann fan most definitely but was not familiar with the OBSESSION score. Given the fact that there were almost simultaneous releases of the OST (2-disc on Music Box Records) and the newly recorded version from Tadlow, I followed my gut and got the Music Box. So, bottom line, I haven't heard the Tadlow OBSESSION. I'll concede "sound quality," in the technical sense, to probably most newly recorded versions of film scores, but for me there is so much more than that to enjoying a film score (or any music, for that matter). Heavy reverb drives me bananas -- though I will grant that some of my tried and true favorites from certain eras suffer from the same disease. Nothing I can do about those. But by and large, I'll take the originals, just as a matter of personal taste. I like to hear the composer's take on best conveying the drama on film, and someone else's (even the composer's) "reimagining" of the music years later doesn't hold a lot of interest for me. (I can see from your comments in the VERTIGO thread that we are on opposite ends of the spectrum on that matter!) James Conlon's re-recording of the VERTIGO score is the only one I have that truly knocks my socks off, as it combines great sound quality with a slavish adherence to the original tempo and feel of the score. New recordings (with a few exceptions) by and large haven't concerned themselves much with fidelity to original sources.
Dana, Same here I got the Music Box set and I was totally taken by the presentation and the archival preservation of OBSESSION. To say the least it was a thrilling presentation and even loved the new remastering of the OST on disc 2. I had to allow a months break before I opened the Tadlow recording. And as you know me, I have vicious appetite for re-recordings as along (as they do it right) Tadlow's OBSESSION is a winner on most accounts of merit. There may be a few different nuances and tempos but for the most it makes for a breathtaking experience (herrmann wasnt in his prime when he conducted it so in the new recording those flaws are easily mitigated) The digital sound and in ambience of 5.1 blu ray in particular makes for another aural experience. The three VERTIGO recordings(Mathesion, McNeely and Conlon) are unique on their own merits. The choice of nuances, tempos and conducting vary across the board and its not a bad thing specially if you love the subject score in the first place. So if you liked Tadlow's EL CID, EXODUS and QUO VADIS then probably you wont go wrong with OBSESSION. Unless its too early for you to jump right in but do get it.Its an experience.
Thanks, Amer! I always value your point of view, so I'll chew on it... I hope all is going well for you on the other side of the globe.
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The RSNO is played at the correct speed, unlike the Sedares version which is slowed down
Rookie mistake. There is no "correct speed" outside of a film. Like all music it is subject to interpretation when it's being "covered" - Sedares chose the tempi he thinks are suitable for the music. Many composers themselves (Herrmann, Rózsa) chose slower tempi when they re-recorded their own works.
Chris seems to feel (as do I) that the speed "inside the film" is the correct speed. Unlike classical music, there is a reference recording for film music, which is, the score as recorded for and heard in the film. There is nothing wrong with people (composers included) choosing slower tempi for their re-recordings, but neither is there anything wrong with regarding the original recordings, typically recorded under the composer's baton, as the "correct speed." Your "rookie mistake" comment is a bit pompous and patronizing, as you assume your correctness in a matter that is the subject of frequent debate around here, quite obviously a statement of your viewpoint, and subject to an "agreement to disagree."
well said Dana.
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Its been nearly 20 years since this recording and THE GREAT ESCAPE were recorded with RSNO under the baton of Elmer Bernstein and Robert Townsend at the production's helm. I'm actually still curious as to why these albums were pulled off the shelf and left to oblivion over the petty artwork issue since RCA Victor was in charge of the art direction. In my opinion both recordings are great performances and should have been given a proper life of its own.
What prevented these recordings from being used by another lable using all the proper artwork and notes to begin with?
I'm curious to know about this 20 year old debacle.
Yes, I have always wondered about that too. They were obviously originally intended to be part of the Varese re-recording cycle (like To Kill a Mockingbird, etc.), then appeared on RCA, then disappeared to be never heard of again. I think the Bernstein re-recording is terrific, it sure packs a punch, though there is not booklet, no liner notes to speak of.
As for "correct" speed, as others have pointed out, there is obviously no "correct" speed in orchestral music (just as there is no "correct" speed to sing a song). The speed is not just part of the conductor's choice, but usually depends on various other circumstances as well. And I prefer a recording with an interpretation that is felt (regardless of speed) over one that mechanically tries to reproduce the tempi of a different recording.
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Posted: |
Apr 23, 2017 - 12:56 PM
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By: |
davefg
(Member)
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Allow me to throw in a kind word for Return of the 7, the Ryko release, which is for all intents and purposes the original Magnificent Seven score note for note, conducted by EB himself, but this time in stereo. I don't love the excessive echo, but it is a punchy recording and is the one I typically listen to when I get the fever for a Mag 7 listen. I do like the Sedares as well, even with the slight slowing of the tempo, as I think it does the score justice for the most part. I gave up on the RNSO recordings before I got to Mag 7, as they all sounded to me like they were recorded in a Boeing 747 hangar. I almost never listen to the original tracks, I am ashamed to admit...
Is that the reverb heard in track one? It is on my disc and I was wondering if anyone else has it as well?
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First off, to whoever said the guitars were "mixed" way back - they weren't mixed at all and that's always been the problem with the RSNO recordings done by Varese (and the Elmers WERE done by the same team - why they ended up on RCA is anyone's guess) - until North by Northwest, they were all recorded "live" to two-track and then edited (the various takes), but they had no control over what was on the two-track. So, yes, bad engineering and you got what you got and the washy distant sound was because of the miking and the hall. When you're in a situation with a huge orchestra and trying to get the blends very quickly because you're on the clock, if you're recording to two-track it's too dangerous.
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Posted: |
Apr 23, 2017 - 1:26 PM
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By: |
Dana Wilcox
(Member)
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Allow me to throw in a kind word for Return of the 7, the Ryko release, which is for all intents and purposes the original Magnificent Seven score note for note, conducted by EB himself, but this time in stereo. I don't love the excessive echo, but it is a punchy recording and is the one I typically listen to when I get the fever for a Mag 7 listen. I do like the Sedares as well, even with the slight slowing of the tempo, as I think it does the score justice for the most part. I gave up on the RNSO recordings before I got to Mag 7, as they all sounded to me like they were recorded in a Boeing 747 hangar. I almost never listen to the original tracks, I am ashamed to admit...
Is that the reverb heard in track one? It is on my disc and I was wondering if anyone else has it as well?
Well, it's certainly most evident in the opening salvo of the score! The following tracks, being typically a bit less bombastic, don't knock me over with reverb quite as much as the main title and percussion-laden "Bandidos" (2nd track) do, but it's there. The dynamic performance on RETURN however makes it (for me) a terrific listen, notwithstanding the reverb.
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First off, to whoever said the guitars were "mixed" way back - they weren't mixed at all and that's always been the problem with the RSNO recordings done by Varese (and the Elmers WERE done by the same team - why they ended up on RCA is anyone's guess) - until North by Northwest, they were all recorded "live" to two-track and then edited (the various takes), but they had no control over what was on the two-track. So, yes, bad engineering and you got what you got and the washy distant sound was because of the miking and the hall. When you're in a situation with a huge orchestra and trying to get the blends very quickly because you're on the clock, if you're recording to two-track it's too dangerous.
As a producer of these things you may know the answer to this question, Bruce: Would there be any way for a productive enterprise such as your own to "massage" a reverby recording like RETURN OF THE 7 to render a recording with a natural-sounding ambient-like echo, without doing harm to the music/listening experience?
If one could get the session tapes, yes - but the reverb is baked into the album masters. What you always want to strive for is a natural, airy room ambience - I hate "dry" recordings and most studio recordings are, of course, recorded dry, Taras Bulba being the classic example - unlistenable, really. When we did it, we added some natural room space and voila. But you never want to go overboard.
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Posted: |
Apr 23, 2017 - 2:25 PM
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By: |
Dana Wilcox
(Member)
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First off, to whoever said the guitars were "mixed" way back - they weren't mixed at all and that's always been the problem with the RSNO recordings done by Varese (and the Elmers WERE done by the same team - why they ended up on RCA is anyone's guess) - until North by Northwest, they were all recorded "live" to two-track and then edited (the various takes), but they had no control over what was on the two-track. So, yes, bad engineering and you got what you got and the washy distant sound was because of the miking and the hall. When you're in a situation with a huge orchestra and trying to get the blends very quickly because you're on the clock, if you're recording to two-track it's too dangerous.
As a producer of these things you may know the answer to this question, Bruce: Would there be any way for a productive enterprise such as your own to "massage" a reverby recording like RETURN OF THE 7 to render a recording with a natural-sounding ambient-like echo, without doing harm to the music/listening experience?
If one could get the session tapes, yes - but the reverb is baked into the album masters. What you always want to strive for is a natural, airy room ambience - I hate "dry" recordings and most studio recordings are, of course, recorded dry, Taras Bulba being the classic example - unlistenable, really. When we did it, we added some natural room space and voila. But you never want to go overboard.
Good points, all. I wonder what ever happened to those original session tapes... Your TARAS BULBA btw sounds wonderful -- I bought the original UA glossy-covered "original soundtrack" when it was first released on LP, and also owned a European CD release (EMI, I think) which sounded as bad as the LP, so I was amazed at the improvements you were able to make in your release. Next to SUMMER AND SMOKE, probably your best work!
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I recently did some "Magnificent Seven" listening... the first recording I ever had of this music was actually the re-recording Elmer Bernstein did for The Return of the Magnificent Seven. Of course, then there is also the original soundtrack, the James Sedares recording, and Elmer Bernstein's second re-recording (the one of this thread's title) with the Royal Scottish National Orchestra. It's a great film score, so I enjoy the variety there is to chose from, because I enjoy all of these recordings.
The one thing I still wonder (and have up there): why was the RSNO recording of Elmer Bernstein not released by Varèse Sarabande in their re-recording series (it was obviously produced for it), and why has it never been re-released? The same with the RSNO re-recording of The Great Escape. Seems odd that they were briefly released by BMG, only to then disappear.
Anybody knows what happened?
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