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This is a comments thread about FSM CD: I'll Cry Tomorrow
 
 Posted:   Feb 28, 2009 - 7:09 AM   
 By:   Jim Phelps   (Member)

Another jewel from FSM, I went gah-gah for this upon its release in 2004. Alex North was largely unknown to me, but hearing I'll Cry Tomorrow's main title on the 1999 Rhino MGM compilation got me interested in his work. I also liked I'll Cry Tomorrow's similarity to "A Streecar Named Desire" with its swanky, jazzy feeling.

For me, the best bits of North's underscore are the psychological/character themes that come together so well on "Stood Up/Shattered/Tortured." However, the biggest surprise may be Susan Hayward's gorgeous, haunted vocals, particularly on the title tune where her phrasing is as good as any professional chanteuse working during the 1950s. Hayward's voice is sad and just so beautiful. Listen to her when she sings on the single version of the title tune, "Who could say to a heart that's full of spring/they've written a blue song/for us to sing"; it gets me every time. I must have listened to that vocal alone sixty times when I first got the CD.

My favorite FSM Golden Age release.

 
 
 Posted:   Feb 28, 2009 - 7:34 AM   
 By:   MICHAEL HOMA   (Member)

agreed, and the whole cd is just about top NORTH, as for SUSAN HAYWARD, just read a review in which the reviewer said he went back twice just to hear HAYWARD sing and perform SING YOU SINNERS. my friend saw her do MAME on stage, he said he could not believe that she was doing her own singing and not prerecorded, she was great,,,,,,and yet when it came time for VALLEY OF THE DOLLS, they dubbed her .someone more knowledgeable than me might be able to tells u why?

 
 
 Posted:   Feb 28, 2009 - 8:51 AM   
 By:   Joe Caps   (Member)



The problem with Susans Voice Was Susan herself. She HATED her own singing, which is why MGM had a dubber come in, just in case, for I'll Cry Tomorrow.

Susan recorded all of hew own vocals for both With a Song in My Heart and Valley fo the Dols, but she vetoed using any of it in the films. Shes dubbed in those films and in Smash Up, the Story of a Woman.

 
 Posted:   May 14, 2009 - 7:25 AM   
 By:   Jim Phelps   (Member)

I'm listening to this CD again and while reading the liner notes, I couldn't help but be struck by Susan's son stating that the film is one that is painful for him to watch, in that Susan's portrayal was as close as she got to being herself onscreen.

Now let's have more of the soapy 1950s film scores!

 
 
 Posted:   May 14, 2009 - 7:39 AM   
 By:   MICHAEL HOMA   (Member)

jim , u are right about this score. it is right up there with the best of NORTH. and SUSAN HAYWARDS singing of the title song is haunting.

 
 Posted:   May 14, 2009 - 7:47 AM   
 By:   Jim Phelps   (Member)

jim , u are right about this score. it is right up there with the best of NORTH. and SUSAN HAYWARDS singing of the title song is haunting.

I'd also note that while Sandy Ellis was an accomplished, professional singer, she doesn't bring that all-important pathos to the material. OTOH Susan nails it. Never in a million years did I think that Hayward could do justice to "The Vagabond King Waltz"!

BTW, I recommend Eduardo Moreno's THE FILMS OF SUSAN HAYWARD which is the best volume of the Citadel Film Series I've ever read.

Strange how Summer brings out the Golden Age enthusiasm.

 
 Posted:   May 14, 2009 - 7:59 AM   
 By:   Ron Pulliam   (Member)

The problem with Susans Voice Was Susan herself. She HATED her own singing, which is why MGM had a dubber come in, just in case, for I'll Cry Tomorrow.

Susan recorded all of hew own vocals for both With a Song in My Heart and Valley fo the Dols, but she vetoed using any of it in the films. Shes dubbed in those films and in Smash Up, the Story of a Woman.



I would have to seriously question whether Fox ever had any notion of NOT using Jane Froman's singing voice in "With A Song in My Heart." Froman was still vital and her career was going strong on TV.

It would have been absurd to believe anyone would have gone with any actress' voice over Froman's own since her wonderful alto was utterly unique.

No, I don't believe for a second that any thought was ever given to using Hayward's voice in that film. I understand that Hayward was involved early in the production with studying Froman and that Froman later said Hayward had her down perfectly.

If anything, I'm thinking Hayward took on the role (never having SUNG in any film before it) with the upfront knowledge that Froman would be the actual singer.

 
 
 Posted:   May 14, 2009 - 9:30 AM   
 By:   manderley   (Member)

.....I would have to seriously question whether Fox ever had any notion of NOT using Jane Froman's singing voice in "With A Song in My Heart." Froman was still vital and her career was going strong on TV.

It would have been absurd to believe anyone would have gone with any actress' voice over Froman's own since her wonderful alto was utterly unique.

No, I don't believe for a second that any thought was ever given to using Hayward's voice in that film. I understand that Hayward was involved early in the production with studying Froman and that Froman later said Hayward had her down perfectly.

If anything, I'm thinking Hayward took on the role (never having SUNG in any film before it) with the upfront knowledge that Froman would be the actual singer.....



I'd have to agree with you here, Ron. I can't imagine they'd ever seriously thought about anyone else singing the Froman role as long as Froman was still able to do it.

I'm guessing that in 1952, the serious plane accident Froman was involved in occurred only about 10 years previously. Those headlines were still in the public's consciousness, as was her voice, and those things alone made WITH A SONG IN MY HEART a very saleable commodity as a biographical film. Why ring in someone else's (Hayward's) vocals, with the attendant publicity being taken away from Froman just when you want to feature Froman?

(Just a little indirect comment about the film, which I saw in 1952 when I was about 12: I used to read all the fan magazines and I remember a story about Hayward during the making of the film in which she told a story about being at home, playing the pre-records constantly to learn them, and one of her sons piped in to sing what he thought were the words, "With a song in my heart, heaven opens its PORT-HOLES to me....." ......Those are the kinds of things that amused a 12-year-old in those days!!!)

Incidentally, Hayward is superb in this film, and her scenes with Robert Wagner (which he has again recently claimed jumpstarted his career) are very touching.

I always thought Hayward brought a lot of underlying warmth to her characters on the screen. In a way, like Stanwyck, you always liked them---even the tough ones. On the other hand, I once knew a cameraman who'd shot several of Hayward's films and he told me she swore like a sailor and was one tough cookie when the chips were down.

It's also interesting how many biographies Hayward appeared in during the '50s, from THE PRESIDENT'S LADY, WITH A SONG IN MY HEART, and I'LL CRY TOMORROW, to I WANT TO LIVE!


I suppose here we should also mention several other musical lady biographies of the '50s, LOVE ME OR LEAVE ME, an excellent film with Doris Day, in which Doris sang for herself, but in no way resembled the singing style or voice of Ruth Etting, THE HELEN MORGAN STORY, in which Ann Blyth portrayed Helen Morgan, but was dubbed by Gogi Grant when Blyth's actual singing voice was far closer in style than Grant's, INTERRUPTED MELODY, an excellent film about the Australian opera singer Marjorie Lawrence, superbly performed (in an Oscar-nominated performance) by Eleanor Parker, who you really believed was singing the operatic arias although it was Eileen Farrell's voice you heard, and finally, SO THIS IS LOVE, the musical biography of opera star Grace Moore, an interesting though fairly incomplete biography in which Kathryn Grayson sang the role pretty accurately. And, of course, THE GREAT CARUSO, with Mario Lanza's performance as the lead, both as singer and actor, was one of the great commercial film hits of the 1950s.

 
 
 Posted:   May 14, 2009 - 9:48 AM   
 By:   manderley   (Member)

This discussion of how good Hayward was as a movie singer reminds me of Ava Gardner.

Gardner was virtually always dubbed (except for PANDORA AND THE FLYING DUTCHMAN, perhaps??), and yet the few recordings we have of her indicate that her singing voice was quite good----and much like we would have expected coming out of her mouth as well as the characters she portrayed.

In the end, it's possible that Gardner's situation was like the Marilyn Monroe case, in which it was reported by inside sources---I think Hugo Friedhofer once told me---that Lionel Newman pre-recorded each song with the orchestra and then patiently pieced together Monroe's vocals line-by-line as he coached her and recorded her alone on a recording stage.

It may well be that Monroe's perceived abilities as a singing (?) actress were more important to Fox---enough so to budget and labor intently over them---than were Gardner's at MGM.

 
 
 Posted:   May 14, 2009 - 10:03 AM   
 By:   Joe Caps   (Member)


Manderley, I must point out that Hayward having recorded her own vocals for With A Song come from Hayward herself. There was a special Susan Haywarrd only interview of the Dick Cavett show- almost 90 minutes of just her and she talked about the vocals there.

BTW - when Sandy ellis came in as possible dubber for Susan for I'll Cry Tomorrow, I wonder why she didn't also record Sing You sinners.

 
 
 Posted:   May 14, 2009 - 10:39 AM   
 By:   manderley   (Member)

.....Manderley, I must point out that Hayward having recorded her own vocals for With A Song come from Hayward herself. There was a special Susan Haywarrd only interview of the Dick Cavett show- almost 90 minutes of just her and she talked about the vocals there.....


I have no argument with this point at all, Joe Caps. I like Hayward's voice a great deal and wish she'd done more musicals.

What I DO say, however, is, that once you get on the soundstage, you'd better have a firm idea of whose vocals you're going to use before that camera rolls a take.

I find it almost impossible to believe that Froman POST-DUBBED all of the vocals for the film after Hayward had lip-synced to her own tracks. The syncing is of a perfection that implies that once Hayward had pre-recorded the tracks, they were abandoned, new tracks were done (or had already been recorded) with Froman well before the picture started, and Hayward rehearsed and lip-synced to those.

In the end, it's all meaningless to speculate anyway---Froman's vocals were used.

 
 
 Posted:   May 14, 2009 - 1:20 PM   
 By:   Joe Caps   (Member)

Manderley, sorry to mislead here. Froman did NOT post dub. Susans and Janes were recorded at the same time.

Susan said in the interview that she would start to film a number with her own voice, then scream out "that's terrible !! Use Janes voice. "

If anyone has a vid of Miss Hayward on the Dick cavett show, I would kill to get a copy.

 
 
 Posted:   May 14, 2009 - 2:20 PM   
 By:   philip*eric   (Member)

joecaps

I second that request - I would love to see the Cavett interview with Susan Hayward - I can not believe that when it was originally aired I missed it -- do you know the date??
imdb does not list a Cavett interview...?

 
 
 Posted:   May 14, 2009 - 3:18 PM   
 By:   manderley   (Member)

.....Manderley, sorry to mislead here. Froman did NOT post dub. Susans and Janes were recorded at the same time.

Susan said in the interview that she would start to film a number with her own voice, then scream out "that's terrible !! Use Janes voice. ".....



That makes sense, and bolsters your argument about what Hayward felt regarding her own voice.

Perhaps it took moving to a new studio, MGM, and getting new opinions on her singing abilities from a new set of musical supervisors, including Johnny Green, to convince her on I'LL CRY TOMORROW.

It's also true, however, that if Fox had been truly adamant about Hayward's singing skills, they would not have used Froman. My guess is that like many non-professional singers Hayward could sing some things, but didn't have the range (unlike Froman) to sing properly all of the songs required by the film---and Hayward and Fox knew it going in.

(Incidentally, on another subject entirely, is there anyone else old enough to be annoyed by eBay sellers who post photos to sell calling her "Susan Hayworth", and, reversely, "Rita Hayward"???!!! But I guess it's no worse than the eBay seller who had a photo of Hedy Lamarr, signed with a "genuine, authentic, verified, certificate of authenticity" ballpoint pen autograph by---wait for it---"Heady Lamour"!!!---even including a scan of the photo and the faux autograph.)

 
 Posted:   May 14, 2009 - 4:03 PM   
 By:   Ron Pulliam   (Member)

"Heady Lamour"!!!


"That's Hedley!"

 
 Posted:   May 14, 2009 - 4:06 PM   
 By:   Ron Pulliam   (Member)

But I guess it's no worse than the eBay seller who had a photo of Hedy Lamarr, signed with a "genuine, authentic, verified, certificate of authenticity" ballpoint pen autograph by---wait for it---"Heady Lamour"!!!---even including a scan of the photo and the faux autograph.)

That, in and of itself, would be well worth a hoot to own!

 
 
 Posted:   May 15, 2009 - 7:16 AM   
 By:   Rozsaphile   (Member)


Gardner was virtually always dubbed (except for PANDORA AND THE FLYING DUTCHMAN, perhaps??)


So she was dubbed in THE KILLERS and THE BRIBE? If so, the small voice that issued from the screen was an effective counterfeit.

 
 
 Posted:   May 15, 2009 - 8:32 AM   
 By:   manderley   (Member)

.....So she was dubbed in THE KILLERS and THE BRIBE? If so, the small voice that issued from the screen was an effective counterfeit.....


The well-known, and excellent dubber, Eileen Wilson sang for Gardner in THE BRIBE. She also sang for Gardner in ONE TOUCH OF VENUS and THE HUCKSTERS.

Wilson was one of the regular standbys, particularly at Fox and MGM in the '40s and '50s, who also occasionally did voices for Cyd Charisse and Sheree North, among others. (She's especially good for North in THE BEST THINGS IN LIFE ARE FREE.)

Other than a few vocal misfires (like using India Adams' original Cyd Charisse BAND WAGON track for Crawford's TORCH SONG), the studios were incredibly good at selecting singing voices which matched performers speaking voices. They were also good at choosing NEW voices to replace those actors' singing voices as the actors' speaking voices changed over the years. Rita Hayworth had at least 4 "voices" in different periods over her career, including Nan Wynn, Martha Mears, Anita Ellis, and Jo Ann Greer.

I'm sure Joe Caps can add more to this conversation.

 
 
 Posted:   May 15, 2009 - 9:23 AM   
 By:   Joe Caps   (Member)


Eilen Wilson always sang for Sheree North.

There is a fox promo film where you can hear sheree sing for Herself.

In the film Mardi Gras starring Miss NOrth and Christine Carrerre, Eileen sings for BOTH of them.

Miss Wilson was the ORIGINAL dubber for Roz Russell for Gypsy and Miss Russell shot the film to Eileens vocal tracks.

In the meantime. Eileen had a recording contract with some small record label who would NOT permit her voice on the Warner records soundtrack album. They had hoped to strong arm Jack Warner into letting the soundtrack to Gypsy on their small label. Jack said no.

At this point, Roz jumps in and says she CAN sing the role and she post dubs the tracks.

All seemed okay until the first preview of the film and the test audience did NOT like Rox voice.
Lisa Kirk then post dubs the soundtrack (again !!).
Parts of Roses Turn are Roz ( not the same parts as on the soundtrack album).

the song have an eggroll Mr. Goldstone is all Roz as it was not prerecorded but recorded live on the set.

 
 
 Posted:   May 15, 2009 - 1:00 PM   
 By:   philip*eric   (Member)

Manderley, I must point out that Hayward having recorded her own vocals for With A Song come from Hayward herself. There was a special Susan Haywarrd only interview of the Dick Cavett show- almost 90 minutes of just her and she talked about the vocals there.

BTW - when Sandy ellis came in as possible dubber for Susan for I'll Cry Tomorrow, I wonder why she didn't also record Sing You sinners.


I believe that the Susan Hayward interview you mention, joecaps, was done with Joey Bishop, not Dick Cavett - Im not sure that it was a 90 min interview but in it she does discuss the prerecords for WITH A SONG IN MY HEART ... this was confirmed by her son, Tim Barker, on the board devoted to Ms Hayward - at Ginger's SusanHayward Homepage - that she was never interviewed by Dick Cavett.

 
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