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You forgot to mention the failure of the attempts at humour....
This made me laugh out loud! Nice work.
I personally had no problem with the jokes, it didn't make the film seem too jokey to me, but maybe I needed more laughs the day I saw it. (I had lost hearing in my left ear for a few days and was pretty "Luke-on-Ahch-To Island" myself - all is fine now.)
Also love Adventure/JarreJarre's comment about Crait being a grain of salt, which is I guess how I took it!
And appreciating these other comments from Michael Scorefan and Greg E - especially the reminder of the X-wing submerged.
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I never said I "want" Luke to fail, just that I have no problem with it, and I'm satisfied with what I learn from the movie as to the rationale. I obviously disagree that the movie is poorly written and staged, but then I'm not waiting "until Kathleen Kennedy calls me up and asks me to put pen to paper." 
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Posted: |
Jan 5, 2018 - 4:47 PM
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By: |
Solium
(Member)
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I think what is so hard for folks seeing Luke go down this road is that he has failed and lost hope. I have no problem at all with a hero failing. He's in good company: Achilles, Oedipus, Othello, Hamlet just to name a few. And I think given the circumstances, it is a natural turn in his character to give up - but only for a while.
Personally - if that means anything to anyone other than me! - I think the issue is less that Luke failed and more that his failure isn't logical or emotionally justified? In that, he had to be a failure to serve the story but the reasoning doesn't serve the character or the established logic in the series. You want Luke to "fall"? Thats great - but how about earning it with the audience instead of a couple of shitty flashbacks?
Yeah, nothing is earned in the last two films. It's all so superficial. That's the bottom line.
Hey and I just thought of something. Remember when Ben said to Vader, "If you strike me down, I'll become more powerful than you can possibly imagine". Well that never really came to fruition, now did it? A yakking ghost spirit really doesn't amount to much.
But! What if Ben transferred his "force powers" into Luke when he was struck down? That would go a long way in explaining why Luke became so powerful with the force.
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Personally - if that means anything to anyone other than me! - I think the issue is less that Luke failed and more that his failure isn't logical or emotionally justified? In that, he had to be a failure to serve the story but the reasoning doesn't serve the character or the established logic in the series. You want Luke to "fall"? Thats great - but how about earning it with the audience instead of a couple of shitty flashbacks?
I loved Last Jedi, but with reservations, one of which being that this (and the Canto sequence) should've been established in Awakens. Rian did what he could even with an unbalanced runtime, and JJ is a great opener, but he never has no leads to close, and you can't close without leads, because you need leads to close... leads... close... LEADS.... CLOSE!!!
Sorry, I just saw Glengarry Glen Ross. That's the side effect.
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Posted: |
Jan 6, 2018 - 2:45 PM
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By: |
Expat@22
(Member)
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For those who profess to like it, it is to me staggering that anyone could proclaim this, especially with what was done with Luke's character and how Rey's character isn't fleshed out at all.
I enjoyed The Last Jedi. Not my favorite Star Wars film (Empire Strikes Back), nor is it even my favorite Disney made Star Wars film (Rogue One), but I certainly enjoyed the film.
So my questions to those who liked The Last Jedi: Was Luke written consistently and satisfactorily to you? If so, which scenes show this? Did his motivations make sense?
Big picture, I was not particularly fond of the direction Luke was taken, but, for many of the reasons Sean ably points out, I don't think it was entirely out of character either. Just not the direction I would have liked to see him go. Truth be told, the same could be said of Han's character in TFA. Although to be fair, pre-Disney or post-Disney, nobody really has known what to do with Han post ROTJ. There were plenty of scenes where Luke was written satisfactorily to me, most of them involve his interactions with classic characters like Chewie, R2, Yoda, Leia, and C3PO. I also loved his confrontation with Kylo Ren. In that confrontation he demonstrates what he already learned in ROTJ, which is that sometimes the way to win is to put your sword down.
My take on it is slightly different although your Han comment is pretty accurate IMO.
In my view the idea of failure mentioned in TESB is concerned with Luke being on a learning curve to be a 'Force user', only one part of being a Jedi. Yoda states that for Luke to fully become a Jedi he must confront Vader. The reason for that is then illustrated in a pivotal scene of ROTJ. There we see what Ben Kenobi warned Luke about, that anger leads to the dark side. But more than that we see that it is brute anger that can defeat the Sith. (This was illustrated in TFM where we saw Kenobi in brute anger defeat the Sith Darth Maul after he witnessed his master defeated by him. Qui Gon Jin was defeated because he was not in a state of anger but centred and 'zened out' after a brief meditation before his duel with Maul.) Thus in the Emperor's throne room Luke explodes in anger or blind rage when Vader threatens Leia and he then subsequently defeats Vader.
But when he sees Vader's robotic forearm he is aware of his own and in that pivotal moment he realises who and what he is - he chooses to be a Jedi, like his father before him. Hence we see the true nature of the light side of the Force - expressed as the empathy (I can feel the good within you), and thus the love and sacrifice for his father, rather than the desire and choice to destroy him. (This was also seen in TESB where he failed when he was defeated by Vader, but rather than succumb to his dark entreaties to join him he chose not to).
In the final scene of ROTJ we see Luke as a fully formed Jedi after undergoing the trial of confronting Vader, as Yoda had instructed. It therefore seems to me to be wholly out of character for him to even contemplate destroying Kylo Ren and go against the greatest of his learning experiences. With that premise, him going into exile would not follow.
As for his motivations, they made sense to the extent that it is consistent with what was set up in TFA. As Han said, Luke blamed himself for what happened to Ben Solo and went into exile. So, the damage had already been done before Rian Johnson even began the Last Jedi. Who knows what he would have done if TFA established Luke in a more "acceptable" role, such as the head of a new Jedi order?
I completely agree, but the exile theme was salvageable had Rian Johnson decided otherwise and, IMHO, understood that scene in TROTJ.
[snip]
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So my questions to those who liked The Last Jedi: Was Luke written consistently and satisfactorily to you? If so, which scenes show this? Did his motivations make sense?
Big picture, I was not particularly fond of the direction Luke was taken, but, for many of the reasons Sean ably points out, I don't think it was entirely out of character either. Just not the direction I would have liked to see him go. Truth be told, the same could be said of Han's character in TFA. Although to be fair, pre-Disney or post-Disney, nobody really has known what to do with Han post ROTJ. There were plenty of scenes where Luke was written satisfactorily to me, most of them involve his interactions with classic characters like Chewie, R2, Yoda, Leia, and C3PO. I also loved his confrontation with Kylo Ren. In that confrontation he demonstrates what he already learned in ROTJ, which is that sometimes the way to win is to put your sword down.
My take on it is slightly different although your Han comment is pretty accurate IMO.
In my view the idea of failure mentioned in TESB is concerned with Luke being on a learning curve to be a 'Force user', only one part of being a Jedi. Yoda states that for Luke to fully become a Jedi he must confront Vader. The reason for that is then illustrated in a pivotal scene of ROTJ. There we see what Ben Kenobi warned Luke about, that anger leads to the dark side. But more than that we see that it is brute anger that can defeat the Sith. (This was illustrated in TFM where we saw Kenobi in brute anger defeat the Sith Darth Maul after he witnessed his master defeated by him. Qui Gon Jin was defeated because he was not in a state of anger but centred and 'zened out' after a brief meditation before his duel with Maul.) Thus in the Emperor's throne room Luke explodes in anger or blind rage when Vader threatens Leia and he then subsequently defeats Vader.
But when he sees Vader's robotic forearm he is aware of his own and in that pivotal moment he realises who and what he is - he chooses to be a Jedi, like his father before him. Hence we see the true nature of the light side of the Force - expressed as the empathy (I can feel the good within you), and thus the love and sacrifice for his father, rather than the desire and choice to destroy him. (This was also seen in TESB where he failed when he was defeated by Vader, but rather than succumb to his dark entreaties to join him he chose not to).
In the final scene of ROTJ we see Luke as a fully formed Jedi after undergoing the trial of confronting Vader, as Yoda had instructed. It therefore seems to me to be wholly out of character for him to even contemplate destroying Kylo Ren and go against the greatest of his learning experiences. With that premise, him going into exile would not follow.
As for his motivations, they made sense to the extent that it is consistent with what was set up in TFA. As Han said, Luke blamed himself for what happened to Ben Solo and went into exile. So, the damage had already been done before Rian Johnson even began the Last Jedi. Who knows what he would have done if TFA established Luke in a more "acceptable" role, such as the head of a new Jedi order?
I completely agree, but the exile theme was salvageable had Rian Johnson decided otherwise and, IMHO, understood that scene in TROTJ.
[snip]
You make some excellent points. For me, though, I do think his reaction is believable. There has been some prior discussion in this thread and elsewhere about how little training Rey seems to have had. There is truth to that, and Luke's training too for that matter, when compared to the training a Force user had when the Jedi Order was at the height of its power. From the prequels, Force users were identified at a very early age, and taken to the Jedi temple for training. So someone like Obi-Wan, for example, had 20+ years of living and training with the Jedi when we meet him at the beginning of the Phantom Menace. So what type of training takes place? Teaching a Force user the how to of using his power seems to take very little time, so the real meat of the training must be a combination of refining skills and most importantly, the philosophical part of the training. The philosophical part I suspect would be part Uncle Ben from Spider-Man (with great power comes great responsibility), and part controlling your emotions so that your emotions don't get the best of you, which often leads to the Dark Side.
Luke was trained enough to control emotions such as fear and anger, so that he could engage in combat, and not succumb to the Dark Side. However, I doubt he had any real training in controlling feelings like guilt, shame, and pride. Those feelings are often more insidious and linger far longer than the more hot feelings like anger. The arrogance of the Jedi is a theme that is throughout the prequels, and that is with Jedi who have practiced controlling their emotions for decades.
Tying it back to The Last Jedi, Luke had the confidence to train a dozen students, and undoubtedly had the confidence that he could train Ben Solo to be a Jedi and not have him turn to the Dark Side. When he saw the darkness in Ben, igniting his lightsaber was a pure emotional reaction that lasted for a couple of seconds before he realized how wrong he had been. By the time Luke realized what he was doing, the damage was done, and Ben Solo woke up, brought the cabin down on Luke, and went to the Dark Side. Luke's guilt and shame got the best of him and he exiled himself. As Yoda said, failure is arguably the best teacher, and that is true, but only if you can get past the shame and guilt and learn from what went wrong rather than blaming yourself for what happened.
From Yoda's comments on Dagobah, a Jedi struggles daily with the Dark Side, and avoids it by being strong. Which is why the Dark Side is quicker and easier, because you are giving in to the emotions that come naturally. Luke was disturbed with what had happened while training Ben Solo and withdrew from both the people who needed him and the Force. That doesn't mean that he went to the Dark Side, but it clouded his vision so that he couldn't get past the tragic events at his Jedi temple. Luke has always shown himself to be human and make mistakes, and what he did was a very human reaction. Thanks to help from R2, Leia, Chewie, and Yoda, he eventually saw how wrong he was and did what he thought best to make things right.
Again, this isn't the direction I would have liked to see Luke go, but I also think what happened isn't out of character. I suspect we haven't seen the last of Luke. He will likely be back as a Force ghost, and Episode IX will explore more about what happened while Luke was trying to train Jedi. Ben did take a handful of students with him, so it will be interesting to see how that unfolds.
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Posted: |
Jan 7, 2018 - 8:01 AM
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By: |
Expat@22
(Member)
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[snip]
Thanks for replying with interesting points.
Luke was trained enough to control emotions such as fear and anger, so that he could engage in combat, and not succumb to the Dark Side. However, I doubt he had any real training in controlling feelings like guilt, shame, and pride. Those feelings are often more insidious and linger far longer than the more hot feelings like anger. The arrogance of the Jedi is a theme that is throughout the prequels, and that is with Jedi who have practiced controlling their emotions for decades.
Not sure about the 1st assumption dealing with guilt shame and pride as I don't recall from memory whether Lucas ever addressed those issues and so using that assumption to support such crucial and pivotal action in TLJ is problematic for me, but you are bang on with the last observation. I was trying to illustrate the converse position, that it was precisely Luke's empathy or reaching out that enabled him to 'see' Vader's internal conflict. Your point also shows, I think, why the Jedi were out-manoeuvred by the Sith in the prequels - they had purged the projection skills of the Force etc and so were neutered in that regard.
[snip] ... When he saw the darkness in Ben, igniting his lightsaber was a pure emotional reaction that lasted for a couple of seconds before he realized how wrong he had been.
Yes. My argument, based on what happened to Luke in the OT is that this would not have happened.
...[snip]... Luke's guilt and shame got the best of him and he exiled himself. As Yoda said, failure is arguably the best teacher, and that is true, but only if you can get past the shame and guilt and learn from what went wrong rather than blaming yourself for what happened.
Did Yoda talk about failure in the OT? He did in TLJ but for me that is moot since Luke's motivations for his actions in TLJ are a non sequitur with reference to what I discussed about him in the OT.
[snip]All good points although once I attempted to understand Luke's motivations in TLJ as stemming from what I understood about the character from the OT ROTJ I realised the character and his motivations in TLJ didn't make sense. I think the Rey character is more complicated if we look at it from what we know from TFA because it seems to involve political social issues that tend to cloud how and what we can interpret from that film in relation to her character.
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[snip]
Thanks for replying with interesting points.
Luke was trained enough to control emotions such as fear and anger, so that he could engage in combat, and not succumb to the Dark Side. However, I doubt he had any real training in controlling feelings like guilt, shame, and pride. Those feelings are often more insidious and linger far longer than the more hot feelings like anger. The arrogance of the Jedi is a theme that is throughout the prequels, and that is with Jedi who have practiced controlling their emotions for decades.
Not sure about the 1st assumption dealing with guilt shame and pride as I don't recall from memory whether Lucas ever addressed those issues and so using that assumption to support such crucial and pivotal action in TLJ is problematic for me, but you are bang on with the last observation. I was trying to illustrate the converse position, that it was precisely Luke's empathy or reaching out that enabled him to 'see' Vader's internal conflict. Your point also shows, I think, why the Jedi were out-manoeuvred by the Sith in the prequels - they had purged the projection skills of the Force etc and so were neutered in that regard.
Lucas did not address guilt, shame, or pride by name, but the prequels make it clear that Jedi are forbidden to have attachments, including being in a loving relationship, which is why the Anakin/Padme relationship was forbidden. In addition to romantic relationships, it was also clear that Anakin had been cut off from trying to contact his mother. For example, when Anakin complained about nightmares about his mother, Obi-Wan tries to assure him that "dreams pass in time" rather than encouraging Anakin to contact his mother, or take a few days and fly to Tatooine. When Anakin consults with Yoda about his visions of Padme dying (without mentioning Padme of course) Yoda instructs him to let go of what he fears to lose most. For me, dealing with guilt, shame, pride, etc., is a logical extension of the themes laid out in the prequels, but it is admittedly a stretch.
[snip] ... When he saw the darkness in Ben, igniting his lightsaber was a pure emotional reaction that lasted for a couple of seconds before he realized how wrong he had been.
Yes. My argument, based on what happened to Luke in the OT is that this would not have happened.
...[snip]... Luke's guilt and shame got the best of him and he exiled himself. As Yoda said, failure is arguably the best teacher, and that is true, but only if you can get past the shame and guilt and learn from what went wrong rather than blaming yourself for what happened.
Did Yoda talk about failure in the OT? He did in TLJ but for me that is moot since Luke's motivations for his actions in TLJ are a non sequitur with reference to what I discussed about him in the OT.
Not specifically, although in ROTJ Yoda's justification for not telling Luke that Vader is his father was that he wanted to prepare Luke for the burden such knowledge would have on his actions. Which to me speaks of training that goes beyond keeping him alive from the obvious dangers of confronting the Sith. Again, a stretch, but a supportable theory to me at least.
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Now that I've seen the film I can read this thread.
Almost funniest line "Get your head out of your cockpit". Good thing that second syllable was there.
Curious credit "Chewbacca Consultant - Peter Mayhew"
Was Mayhew not physically able to perform the role anymore? I read he had difficulty on TFA.
Mayhew is no longer playing the character due to knee issues. http://www.thisisinsider.com/star-wars-the-last-jedi-who-is-chewbacca-actor-2017-12
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