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 Posted:   Nov 26, 2013 - 5:47 AM   
 By:   mstrox   (Member)

First of all, I think it's weird that they are planning another Tennant regeneration. That means not only that they have to get Tennant back again, it must also be an insane challenge to get that into the existing timeline.

The extra regeneration is already in Journey's End - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Journey's_End_(Doctor_Who) - he almost dies/regenerates but is able to heal himself.

I'm not too concerned about the continuity from "The Name of the Doctor" to "The Day of the Doctor." They are in a cave that is full of the Doctor's timeline. Other Doctors are running about, the Doctor rescues Clara and sees The War Doctor. Then the Doctor carries Clara off. Presumably that would lead to their escaping the cave/timeline jumble, and then they escape and go on with their lives until the 50th Anniversary Special.

 
 
 Posted:   Nov 26, 2013 - 6:29 AM   
 By:   Thor   (Member)

First of all, I think it's weird that they are planning another Tennant regeneration. That means not only that they have to get Tennant back again, it must also be an insane challenge to get that into the existing timeline.

The extra regeneration is already in Journey's End - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Journey's_End_(Doctor_Who) - he almost dies/regenerates but is able to heal himself.

I'm not too concerned about the continuity from "The Name of the Doctor" to "The Day of the Doctor." They are in a cave that is full of the Doctor's timeline. Other Doctors are running about, the Doctor rescues Clara and sees The War Doctor. Then the Doctor carries Clara off. Presumably that would lead to their escaping the cave/timeline jumble, and then they escape and go on with their lives until the 50th Anniversary Special.


I AM worried about it, since it's that type of continuity and coherence I was after when I launched my whole WHO marathon back in April (seeing everything since 1963).

That explanation doesn't hold water for me for any number of reasons (that we've previously discussed). Even if they did escape, what would the purpose of having Hurt doctor there other than to 'tease' the 50th? Just to say 'hello'? Also, when Smith encounters Hurt in the 50th, it's almost like the first time they meet. No reference to their cave meeting.

Vice versa, if the 50th takes place BEFORE the cave meeting at some point, that wouldn't make sense either, as there would be no point in having the big meeting in the cave now that Hurt was absolved. And that's true even if they've forgotten their adventure together.

So it's a lose-lose situation.

It annoys me a little bit that this isn't the talk of the town among WHO fans -- it seems like such a GLARING plot hole. Either that or I'm missing something terribly obvious.

 
 
 Posted:   Nov 26, 2013 - 6:32 AM   
 By:   Thor   (Member)

In short, I think Moffat may have written himself into a corner here, LOST-style, unless something extremely clever is due in the Christmas special. I cannot see any way the 50th fits into the continuity from "The Name of the Doctor".

 
 Posted:   Nov 26, 2013 - 7:51 AM   
 By:   solium   (Member)

I found the 50th very entertaining, but I am disappointed how loose they are playing with their own storyline. I thought DW was smarter than that. American shows have gone down this path of ignoring what we set up before just to toss in another curve ball or because they continually write themselves into a corner, and it's why I stopped watching such shows. I expect integrity in the story arcs. Ah well, I have no interest in revisiting old Doctor Who's now. If they are just going to change established plot devices on a whim, whats the point?

 
 Posted:   Nov 26, 2013 - 8:32 AM   
 By:   Stefancos   (Member)

Even if they did escape, what would the purpose of having Hurt doctor there other than to 'tease' the 50th? Just to say 'hello'? Also, when Smith encounters Hurt in the 50th,

There is no other reason, not as far as I could see. It was the end of the season. The 5oth anniversary ep was the next big thing, so they put Hurt in there to foreshadow that. The War Doctor doesn't seem to have any connection with the Trenzelore plot, or the upcoming regeneration story.

I dont see how Moffat wrote himself into a corner at all.

The Day Of The Doctor has a couple of scenes in there specifically because it was an anniversary episode. For example Tom Baker's cameo, or having The Matt Smith Doctor standing alongside his previous incarnations.
They are there only as a celebration of the show. I really doubt Tom Baker will ever be seen again, and I dont require an complicated in-universe explanation of who exactly his character was and how he fits in, it was just a fun cameo.
Likewise the final shot doesn't make any in-universe sense at all, so in subsequent episodes you are not gonna see Smith or Capaldi go to the big room in the TARDIS where all the other Doctors also go and have a heart to heart with...himself.

 
 Posted:   Nov 26, 2013 - 8:44 AM   
 By:   Stefancos   (Member)

Having said that Moffat has repeatedly written himself in a corner or made mistakes plot wise.

The big solution to "The Doctor's death" as given in The Wedding Of River Song doesn't match what we saw in The Impossible Astronaut.
If River (the astronaut) shot a robot version of The Doctor, why do we see him partially regenerate? Moffat offers no explanation.

The TARDIS explodes in The Pandorica opens, (briefly) destroying the universe. Yet subsequent episodes never make clear how and why the TARDIS exploded.

In The Angels Take Manhattan The Doctor states he can never see Amy and Rory again because because of the temporal distortions either New York, or the year they were send to was no longer accessible to the TARDIS. Which in no way rules out that The Doctor could go back do a different time, maybe 5 or 5 years and see them there, or just meet them in another place then New York (The more you think about Angels In Manhattan, the more it falls apart)

Another issue I have with Moffat is that he does reuse concepts or plot ideas a lot.
The way Amy Pond meets The Doctor is basically the same as the way Madame De Pompadour encounters him. (first as a child with something scary in her room, then years later for her, and only minutes for him)

The big solution of saving Gallifrey (making it disappear to the Daleks die in their own crossfire) is basically identical to the way The Doctor dealt with the Weeping Angels in Blink (dematerializing The TARDIS so the Angels freeze because they are suddenly looking at each other)

 
 Posted:   Nov 26, 2013 - 9:44 AM   
 By:   solium   (Member)


The big solution to "The Doctor's death" as given in The Wedding Of River Song doesn't match what we saw in The Impossible Astronaut. If River (the astronaut) shot a robot version of The Doctor, why do we see him partially regenerate? Moffat offers no explanation.

In The Angels Take Manhattan The Doctor states he can never see Amy and Rory again because because of the temporal distortions either New York, or the year they were send to was no longer accessible to the TARDIS. Which in no way rules out that The Doctor could go back do a different time, maybe 5 or 5 years and see them there, or just meet them in another place then New York (The more you think about Angels In Manhattan, the more it falls apart)


The "robot" Doctor mimicked a failed regeneration because he had to convince River, Amy and Rory he was really dead at that moment in time.

Angels Take Manhattan paradox was just lazy writing. It is a point in time he can never go back too for the dramatic effect he can never see Amy and Rory again. It has to be in another timeline/alternative universe not assessable to the Tardis. But really no credible explanation was made.

 
 
 Posted:   Nov 26, 2013 - 10:36 AM   
 By:   Thor   (Member)

There is no other reason, not as far as I could see. It was the end of the season. The 5oth anniversary ep was the next big thing, so they put Hurt in there to foreshadow that. The War Doctor doesn't seem to have any connection with the Trenzelore plot, or the upcoming regeneration story.

I dont see how Moffat wrote himself into a corner at all.


You could call it writing himself into a corner, or just inserting a totally random element as a 'wink' to fans. Either way, it's a cheap cop-out that betrays the big continuity Davies and Moffat have set up.

The Tom Baker thing is somewhat in the same category, true, but a little bit easier to swallow since it's just a brief cameo that comes and goes. It's even possible to speculate about alternate timelines where an aged 4th doctor turned out to be the curator of the museum. The 'doctor group photo' thing is also easy to swallow because it's a dream. It works in the story and it works as a reference to the WHO history for fans. The Hurt thing, however, is set up as a specific climax of the "Name" episode and is expected to follow logically into the next (which it then doesn't). It's annoying for context/continuity fanatics like myself.

 
 Posted:   Nov 26, 2013 - 1:55 PM   
 By:   Stefancos   (Member)

A continuity whore really suffers in the Moffat era, so many things that don't add up.

A few things bother me because of obvious faults in the writing. but on the other hand, Doctor Who is a show about time traveling, changing history, the future, alternate dimensions, different time lines, in a universe where time isnt linear, more like a ball of wibbley wobbley timey wimey...stuff.

Absolute continuity can not be expected.

 
 
 Posted:   Nov 26, 2013 - 2:28 PM   
 By:   Thor   (Member)

Probably not, but I would have hoped for something a little less glaring, at least.

Oh, how I miss the Russell T. Davies era.

 
 Posted:   Nov 26, 2013 - 3:14 PM   
 By:   johnjohnson   (Member)

Doctor Who showrunner Steven Moffat has been talking to Radio Times about the future of the Doctor, given the character is now dangerously near the end of his regeneration cycle as spelled out in the 1976 story The Deadly Assassin.

The story stated a Time Lord can only regenerate twelve times, and Moffat considers the Doctor is now in his thirteenth and final body. John Hurt is now officially a Doctor, sitting between the Eighth and Ninth Doctors, and David Tennant used up an extra regeneration during his stay. The writer was clear about the future, and how the Doctor is now at the end of his cycle - something that could cause problems when Matt Smith turns into Peter Capaldi in the 2013 Christmas episode. "The 12 regenerations limit is a central part of Doctor Who mythology - science fiction is all about rules, you can't just casually break them.."

To add to the confusion and despite the number of bodies the Doctor has had, Moffat is clear that Matt Smith is still the Eleventh Doctor. He told a press conference at London's Excel arena that the addition of the John Hurt Doctor to the series does nothing to alter the numbering of the other incarnations.

"He's just The Doctor, Matt Smith's Doctor is the 11th Doctor, however there is no such character as the 11th Doctor – he’s just the Doctor – that's what he calls himself. The numbering doesn't matter, except for those lists that you and I have been making for many years. So I've given you the option of not counting John Hurt numerically - he's the War Doctor."

Moffat also talked of how he found it irresistible to put Tom Baker into the 50th Anniversary story. "Tom didn't want to come and do a long thing and he didn't want to put the old costume on. He didn't want to do any of that, but his agent said that he wasn't against the idea of doing a short appearance."

Baker was the longest-serving Doctor, appearing from 1974-1981. Moffat said it would have been impossible to include all the surviving Doctors in the episode. "You can't have scenes around 11 or 12 people - you can't do it. To have the longest-standing Doctor make an appearance and be the one who briefs the new Doctor on where to go . . . well, it's irresistible, isn't it? You get to hear that voice again! It was just wonderful."

http://www.doctorwhonews.net/2013/11/moffat-on-doctor-numbering.html

 
 Posted:   Nov 26, 2013 - 4:01 PM   
 By:   solium   (Member)

Moffat considers the Doctor is now in his thirteenth and final body. John Hurt is now officially a Doctor, sitting between the Eighth and Ninth Doctors, and David Tennant used up an extra regeneration during his stay.

To add to the confusion and despite the number of bodies the Doctor has had, Moffat is clear that Matt Smith is still the Eleventh Doctor.

"He's just The Doctor, Matt Smith's Doctor is the 11th Doctor, however there is no such character as the 11th Doctor – he’s just the Doctor –


Huh? My brain hurts!

 
 
 Posted:   Nov 27, 2013 - 2:13 AM   
 By:   Ian J.   (Member)

Moffat considers the Doctor is now in his thirteenth and final body. John Hurt is now officially a Doctor, sitting between the Eighth and Ninth Doctors, and David Tennant used up an extra regeneration during his stay.

To add to the confusion and despite the number of bodies the Doctor has had, Moffat is clear that Matt Smith is still the Eleventh Doctor.

"He's just The Doctor, Matt Smith's Doctor is the 11th Doctor, however there is no such character as the 11th Doctor – he’s just the Doctor –


Huh? My brain hurts!


It's just name labels. What Moffat is saying is that the name 'The Doctor' is only applied to 11 of the faces, with Hurt's not having that name specifically but instead being called 'War Doctor' instead.

So, what really matters is the number of regenerations. There are supposed to be only twelve, meaning thirteen faces for The Doctor. If Tennant used up an extra regeneration, then Smith-Capaldi is the 13th regeneration, not the 12th, meaning the idea of only twelve regenerations is already broken. So if that twelve limit is to be observed properly, there's going to need to be some kind of explanation for Tennant's apparent usage of an extra one, or some other explanation for there being a Smith-Capaldi regeneration.

 
 Posted:   Nov 27, 2013 - 2:29 AM   
 By:   Stefancos   (Member)

River Song gave up her regenerations to save The Doctor in Let's Kill Hitler. That's a possible explanation.

But they will probably make up another one.

 
 Posted:   Nov 27, 2013 - 2:54 AM   
 By:   Mr Greg   (Member)

I have a distinct feeling The Moff's known where this is going since about....oooh...."The Eleventh Hour"?

 
 
 Posted:   Nov 27, 2013 - 5:27 AM   
 By:   Thor   (Member)

River Song gave up her regenerations to save The Doctor in Let's Kill Hitler. That's a possible explanation.

Yeah, that was what I thought too.

 
 Posted:   Nov 27, 2013 - 7:03 AM   
 By:   solium   (Member)

@ Ian J- Thanks for the explanation. But my brain still hurts. big grin

 
 Posted:   Nov 27, 2013 - 8:33 AM   
 By:   Stefancos   (Member)

I have a distinct feeling The Moff's known where this is going since about....oooh...."The Eleventh Hour"?

Which technically should now be called The Twelfth Hour.

 
 Posted:   Nov 27, 2013 - 9:54 AM   
 By:   solium   (Member)

I'm by no means a DW expert. This is what I gather from what Moffat is saying. How accurate is this analysis?

First Doctor 1 regeneration (1st body)
Second Doctor 1 regeneration (2nd body)
Third Doctor 1 regeneration (3rd body)
Fourth Doctor 1 regeneration (4th body)
Fifth Doctor 1 regeneration (5th body)
Sixth Doctor 1 regeneration (6th body)
Seventh Doctor 1 regeneration (7th body)
Eighth Doctor 1 regeneration (8th body)
War Doctor 1 regeneration (9th body)
Ninth Doctor 1 regeneration (10th body)
Tenth Doctor 2 regenerations (11th and 12th body)
Eleventh Doctor Partial regeneration to heal River Song (13th body)

Additional: River Song 2 regenerations. 1 used to heal Eleventh Doctor

Comments:

Eleventh Doctor is in it's 13th body.
All 12 regenerations have been used up. 12 "plus" since Eleventh Doctor healed River Song's injury.
Eleventh Doctor shouldn't have had any regeneration powers to heal River Song.
War Doctor is not counted for some bizarre reason.
Eleventh Doctor will die in the Christmas Special. Will he regenerate and how?
There is another Doctor after the Eleventh. Will he start a new line of Doctors or will he count within the existing batch?

 
 Posted:   Dec 4, 2013 - 11:32 AM   
 By:   johnjohnson   (Member)



In the video Paul McGann talks about his return to Doctor Who and reprising the role of the Eighth Doctor. It also features some behind the scenes footage from The Night of the Doctor.

http://www.doctorwhotv.co.uk/the-night-of-the-doctor-mcgann-video-56461.htm

 
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