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 Posted:   Aug 15, 2013 - 9:13 AM   
 By:   solium   (Member)

http://www.ign.com/articles/2013/08/12/diehard-star-trek-fans-rank-the-best-and-worst-movies

Really sad to see where TMP ended up. (After Generations are you frakking me?!) Oh and Star Trek 5 ranking not surprising, but I would personaly put it in the top five! Undiscovered Country is complete mess. It think fans rank it high because Myer returned for that film, more than for the film itself.

My top six:

(1) WOK
(2) TMP
(3) Voyage Home
(4) First Contact
(5) Final Frontier
(6) Nemesis

Last six:

(7-12) Interchangeable

Omitted:

Galaxy Quest somehow belongs in this list. Seriously?

 
 Posted:   Aug 15, 2013 - 9:24 AM   
 By:   mastadge   (Member)

Galaxy Quest somehow belongs in this list. Seriously?

Well it is the best Star Trek movie to date!

Undiscovered Country is complete mess. It think fans rank it high because Myer returned for that film, more than for the film itself.

I think fans rank it high because it's one of the most watchable Trek films. After the disappointing 3 and 5 and the good but goofy and different 4 it was a solid Trek film that stood alone and that could appeal to fans of both TOS and TNG. Also it was based on a Tom Clancy novel and how could you possibly go wrong with that?

 
 
 Posted:   Aug 15, 2013 - 9:31 AM   
 By:   Ado   (Member)

http://www.ign.com/articles/2013/08/12/diehard-star-trek-fans-rank-the-best-and-worst-movies

Really sad to see where TMP ended up. (After Generations are you frakking me?!) Oh and Star Trek 5 ranking not surprising, but I would personaly put it in the top five! Undiscovered Country is complete mess. It think fans rank it high because Myer returned for that film, more than for the film itself.

My top six:

(1) WOK
(2) TMP
(3) Voyage Home
(4) First Contact
(5) Final Frontier
(6) Nemesis

Last six:

(7-12) Interchangeable

Omitted:

Galaxy Quest somehow belongs in this list. Seriously?


Well, if you read the article, it was a poll of about 100 fans. So it is sad that this is getting so much media attention. So we have tons of coverage caused by 100 of the biggest ST nerds on the planet. Absurd. The Galaxy Quest inclusion is totally absurd.

I would parse out the film series separate since they are so different really. If I was forced to rank them I would put TMP in the top three - since the level of craft and scale is absolutely superb. I love the film myself.

The worst film in terms of craft and writing is probably ST V, but there are moments that do work in it. TWOK always get picked as best, to the point that I am tired of it, and I find some of the pacing and literary stuff a bit dusty and melodramatic. I mean it is great coming from Ricardo Montalbahn, but there are times it wears thin. As a story it is a great drama, but it is not the most entertaining of all of them.

If you are looking at entertaining, I would say the newest ones rate pretty high, with First Contact, Voyage Home. Those are not strictly Trekkers dreams, but there it is. If you asked me to pick Into Darkness or TMP, I would pick the latter - and every critic in the world disagrees with me, but there you go. I would also rank Nemesis much higher than most people. It is similarly wordy and inner driven as TWOK - but it sure takes a lot of grief. Congrats on a bold top list - very interesting

 
 Posted:   Aug 15, 2013 - 9:44 AM   
 By:   solium   (Member)

@ Mastadge- Undiscovered Country started out great but after 20 minutes went nowhere. Did love the fact Sulu finally got a ship of his own.

@ Ado- Wow, my bad, I didn't "read" the whole article. The headline was deceiving. Star Trek V had the best chemistry between the trio. The story is a mess, but I liked the nutty humor. Guilty pleasure for sure. I really don't get all the hate for Nemesis. Star Trek 09 was Nemesis rebooted, and everyone loved it. roll eyes

 
 
 Posted:   Aug 15, 2013 - 10:18 AM   
 By:   Ado   (Member)

@ Mastadge- Undiscovered Country started out great but after 20 minutes went nowhere. Did love the fact Sulu finally got a ship of his own.

@ Ado- Wow, my bad, I didn't "read" the whole article. The headline was deceiving. Star Trek V had the best chemistry between the trio. The story is a mess, but I liked the nutty humor. Guilty pleasure for sure. I really don't get all the hate for Nemesis. Star Trek 09 was Nemesis rebooted, and everyone loved it. roll eyes



Solium
V is a mess, much it Shatner's fault, some the studio for cheaping out, but if you drop your defenses it is surprisingly entertaining.

 
 
 Posted:   Aug 15, 2013 - 10:23 AM   
 By:   Michael24   (Member)

My personal ranking . . .

1. The Wrath of Khan
2. First Contact
3. The Undiscovered Country
4. Generations
5. The Search for Spock
6. Insurrection
7. The Voyage Home
8. The Final Frontier
9. Nemesis
10. The Motion Picture
11. Star Trek

I like 1-8 all well enough. The others are the only ones I don't really care for. Haven't seen Star Trek Into Darkness, and have no real plans to. The Search for Spock was actually my favorite as a kid, and while The Final Frontier has its problems, I have a special fondness for it because it was the first one I saw in the theater.

 
 
 Posted:   Aug 15, 2013 - 10:31 AM   
 By:   Octoberman   (Member)

Solium
V is a mess, much it Shatner's fault, some the studio for cheaping out, but if you drop your defenses it is surprisingly entertaining.



I think all of its faults can be placed squarely on the studio's shoulders. Any mess is theirs.
The only thing Shatner can be held accountable for is coming up with a basic plot that had already been used so often. And considering that "Star Trek" itself did that all the time (and continued to do so), it's not a very serious crime. I find that I don't terribly mind if something is repeated as long as it's worth repeating.
I think it's VERY entertaining and it stays the truest to the bond between the 3 leads and how they would relate to each other as older people.
AND it has my favorite Kirk-hair in it... the previous 4 were dreadful. This one's almost a mullet--looks good on him!

 
 Posted:   Aug 15, 2013 - 10:52 AM   
 By:   solium   (Member)

V's Pluses.

(1) Felt most like TOS.
(2) Some cool effects shots in concept if not in execution. Loved the reflection of the Enterprise in front of the moon. Loved the emergency landing sequence.
(3) Deforest Kelly's best acting scene EVER.
(4) Real LOL moments. Especially from Scotty.
(5) Cynthia Gouw- Vavavoom!

 
 
 Posted:   Aug 15, 2013 - 11:11 AM   
 By:   Ado   (Member)

It works fairly well up till the exploring the pain scene in that obserservation room. Harve Bennett and Ralph Winter had some interesting things to say on the docs on that disc. One of the issues, is once they are heading for the 'center of the galaxy' what is going to happen that makes all of the build up mean something, with a pay off? Well the face in the column of light did not really cut it, nor did those tank effects around the planet that Bran Ferren did for them, nor did those lightning bolts coming after Kirk on the planet. (Ferren was out of the business soon after this) Once the story is off that darn 'god planet' it works again, so it might have been a better movie if they just never got to that darn planet.

 
 Posted:   Aug 15, 2013 - 11:20 AM   
 By:   solium   (Member)

Once the story is off that darn 'god planet' it works again, so it might have been a better movie if they just never got to that darn planet.

Very good point! Have to agree with this assessment.

 
 
 Posted:   Aug 15, 2013 - 12:41 PM   
 By:   Ado   (Member)

One of the weaknesses with the JJ writer team is that the new films have things happen simply because that is something that needs to happen. Both these last two had villains with a shallow backstory with an immense amount of hatred for not much of a good reason.

The (2013) Khan backstory in particular is very weak. If he could overcome and outsmart everyone on the Enterprise he could have overcome Admiral Marcus and released his buddies from their tubes much earlier in the story. But that cannot happen, because the writers wanted to re-hash the confrontation on the Enterprise for some reason.

 
 Posted:   Aug 15, 2013 - 12:59 PM   
 By:   Francis   (Member)

1. First Contact great fun!!
2. The Undiscovered Country serious fun!!
3. Wrath of Khan old school fun!
4. Generations Whoopi saved it!
5. Insurrection Riker saved it with his maneuver!
6. Star Trek my eyes! it burns!
7. Into Darkness sherlock saves it!
8. Voyage Home space is overrated
9. TMP editing is overrated
10. Nemesis bad director..
11. The Final Frontier very very bad director...
12. Search for Spock fast forward plz

For me it's easy though; best of TNG = First Contact, best of Sulu = Undiscovered Country, Best of J.J. = is yet to come with Star Wars.

 
 
 Posted:   Aug 15, 2013 - 1:11 PM   
 By:   Ado   (Member)

1. First Contact great fun!!
2. The Undiscovered Country serious fun!!
3. Wrath of Khan old school fun!
4. Generations Whoopi saved it!
5. Insurrection Riker saved it with his maneuver!
6. Star Trek my eyes! it burns!
7. Into Darkness sherlock saves it!
8. Voyage Home space is overrated
9. TMP editing is overrated
10. Nemesis bad director..
11. The Final Frontier very very bad director...
12. Search for Spock fast forward plz

For me it's easy though; best of TNG = First Contact, best of Sulu = Undiscovered Country, Best of J.J. = is yet to come with Star Wars.



Francis,
Do you think Star Trek or Star Wars is easier to mess up?
I am thinking, not sure I am saying this right, that Star Trek has so much legacy baggage, that universe is so overwrought with legacy that it is pretty easy to mess up. Also it has too many characters to really treat properly (A failing also of Avengers to me) Whereas Star Wars, while it has been there a while, has some legacy, might be easier to 'reboot" so to speak. I mean, what does the SW fan want? Well. lots of combat and space battles? It seems so. ?

 
 Posted:   Aug 15, 2013 - 1:38 PM   
 By:   Francis   (Member)


Francis,
Do you think Star Trek or Star Wars is easier to mess up?
I am thinking, not sure I am saying this right, that Star Trek has so much legacy baggage, that universe is so overwrought with legacy that it is pretty easy to mess up. Also it has too many characters to really treat properly (A failing also of Avengers to me) Whereas Star Wars, while it has been there a while, has some legacy, might be easier to 'reboot" so to speak. I mean, what does the SW fan want? Well. lots of combat and space battles? It seems so. ?


I would actually argue that having a big legacy makes it easier not to screw up; part of why J.J.'s Star Trek was passable was that we already know those characters. That is why I think I am also more lenient to Insurrection and Generations because I just love to watch the TNG crew and I know those movies are still better than the first two seasons and a lot of other episodes of Next Generation. You tend to compare it to the tv show;

Whereas with Star Wars, all there is is the movies; And for me they already messed up big time with the prequels; so much so that I think J.J. can rectify that as he has already shown he can do Star Wars action (great space battles) with the last two Trek movies, and his other movies and tv work have shown me he can direct actors (the one force George Lucas seems to lack). Plus with Williams on board, it will be amazing.

At this point we do need a new Star Trek tv series badly... the movies are fun but it needs the tv format to do some real storytelling.

 
 
 Posted:   Aug 15, 2013 - 1:44 PM   
 By:   Ado   (Member)

I agree that ST best forum is TV, I really did not like the SW prequels either.

 
 
 Posted:   Aug 15, 2013 - 1:56 PM   
 By:   Octoberman   (Member)

The issue of legacy baggage is interesting.

These characters are so well delineated by now that the stories should practically write themselves. All that writers need to do is throw the basic plot into the pot and the characters will act and react according to the behaviors that are already established. Some will live, some will die, etc., but they will all be who they are.

At this point they are almost real people, so much so that the Classic cast were even at the point of telling the writers and directors what their alter-egos would and would not say.
I'm thinking specifically of how Nichols would never have let Uhura say, "Guess who's coming to dinner?". Or how it was decided that Saavik would NEVER become a co-conspirator in the events of VI, so they created Valeris. That kind of thing.

 
 
 Posted:   Aug 15, 2013 - 2:31 PM   
 By:   BarleyBlair   (Member)

First off, Bil Shatner's V is one of my faves, it has IDEAS in it, which that hack Abrams has fogotten about in favour of nothing but mindless action and scripts written by three year olds (needless bad language withstanding).

Rant over, from best to worst:-

1. II - Wrath of Khan (excellent)
2. III - Search for Spock (great)
3. IV - Voyage Home (fun with a serious message)
4. TMP (like a fine wine, this has aged and got better with age and I see it more like a Silent running/2001 type film)
5. V - Final Frontier (fun and with food for thought)
6. VI - Undiscovered Country (I think it is quite poor, more like Next Gen ep that an original cast Trek)
7. Generations (only redeeming feaure is that some original cast in it, ven if Kirk's death was a complete botch)
8. First Contact (I was fed up with the recurring Borg even before this)
9. Insurrection (our pal Leha's fave in that the only one of the Treks that actually explores new worlds - though with poor direction and script )
10. Nemesis (lousy all round, even the music!)
11. Trek reboot (as with Nemesis)
12. Into Darkness (scraping the very bottom of the barrel)

 
 
 Posted:   Aug 15, 2013 - 2:51 PM   
 By:   zooba   (Member)

Features Starring the Original Cast.

1. Wrath of Khan
2. Search for Spock
3. Voyage Home
4. Undiscovered Country
5. TMP (The story was just horrible and so the film basically sucks, but seeing the original cast together and Goldsmith saved it. The writer's gave them shit to work with.)
6. Final Frontier

 
 Posted:   Aug 15, 2013 - 5:22 PM   
 By:   Adam B.   (Member)

1) The Wrath of Khan (9/10) - Saw it 21 times in the theaters.
2) The Search for Spock (8/10) - A certain "flatness" to it, but entertaining nonetheless.
3) The Voyage Home (8/10) - Took my parents to see this on Christmas Day 1986. Fun.
4) The Undiscovered Country (8/10) - Fine wrap-up for the series.
5) The Motion Picture (5/10) - A huge disappointment, but I've warmed to it over the years.
6) The Final Frontier (2/10) - I'm glad I didn't see this in a theater. I would have walked out early.

 
 Posted:   Aug 15, 2013 - 9:18 PM   
 By:   Saul Pincus   (Member)

The worst film in terms of craft and writing is probably ST V, but there are moments that do work in it.

Since you're bothering to separate "writing" from "craft," I humbly disagree.

You won't get any argument from me on visual effects - they stunk. But "craft" also covers things like costumes, art direction, photography, editing, music and sound. Most of the craft departments did a fine job. (Err, MUSIC, anyone?!) wink

In fact, I think most of the lighting and camerawork is wonderful and alive, while still adhering to the rather sedate style that came to embody classic Trek cinema. But shooting entire bridge sequences on steadicam (and really sloppy steadicam at that) is one example of how a decision made to cope with scheduling overruns can telegraph cheapness to an audience. Shatner was forced to make this decision - but Bennett should have known better and fought for reshoots when he saw the dailies.

Shatner actually had a vision - a vibrant one, at that - but he had zero support from above, and a lack of experience to cope with budget and scheduling problems in a way that wouldn't reveal the seams in his carefully-knit tapestry. Yes, fighting for exactly that story wasn't his best directorial choice, but barring some of its famous silliness, the script itself is actually filled with good stuff. The Trek V that came of it is at worst wildly uneven - but it's a lot better than this year's even more wildly uneven Star Trek: Into Darkness, IMHO. And I'll take classic Trek ideas and earnestness over Next Gen or Nu Trek most days.

 
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