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Posted: |
Jan 17, 2014 - 10:25 PM
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By: |
SchiffyM
(Member)
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Mr. Eastman, I respect your opinion, and your passion. But boy, is this set a slog for me. Long, long stretches with no development, just the same slow rendition of a theme that I find one of Goldsmith's least memorable. What is Shinzon's theme supposed to be conveying? I have no idea, nor does it interest me. The action music has none of the interest of a great Goldsmith action score -- it's just so much shouting and obviousness. Even the performance of Goldsmith's great "Trek" theme feels lifeless and rote to me.
Sure, the film does him no favors. But I'm not trying to damn Goldsmith, one of my idols. I just can't pretend I have any desire to listen to this again. I have more than 150 Goldsmith CDs, and this one isn't in the top 145.
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Mr. Eastman, I respect your opinion, and your passion. But boy, is this set a slog for me. Long, long stretches with no development, just the same slow rendition of a theme that I find one of Goldsmith's least memorable. What is Shinzon's theme supposed to be conveying? I have no idea, nor does it interest me. The action music has none of the interest of a great Goldsmith action score -- it's just so much shouting and obviousness. Even the performance of Goldsmith's great "Trek" theme feels lifeless and rote to me.
Sure, the film does him no favors. But I'm not trying to damn Goldsmith, one of my idols. I just can't pretend I have any desire to listen to this again. I have more than 150 Goldsmith CDs, and this one isn't in the top 145.
I'll have what he's having.
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Posted: |
Jan 17, 2014 - 11:09 PM
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By: |
Chris Avis
(Member)
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Mr. Eastman, I respect your opinion, and your passion. But boy, is this set a slog for me. Long, long stretches with no development, just the same slow rendition of a theme that I find one of Goldsmith's least memorable. What is Shinzon's theme supposed to be conveying? I have no idea, nor does it interest me. The action music has none of the interest of a great Goldsmith action score -- it's just so much shouting and obviousness. Even the performance of Goldsmith's great "Trek" theme feels lifeless and rote to me.
Sure, the film does him no favors. But I'm not trying to damn Goldsmith, one of my idols. I just can't pretend I have any desire to listen to this again. I have more than 150 Goldsmith CDs, and this one isn't in the top 145.
I too am somewhat baffled by the newfound praise this score is getting. I'm not quite as negative about this score as you are, as I think you can build an enjoyable 50 minute playlist out of it, but it sure ain't top drawer Goldsmith. There's only so many times you can hear Shinzon's theme or the constant "dong... whoosh" synth combination that permeates this score. It's widely recognized that the late 90s / early 2000s were hardly Jerry's golden years, but even if you compare Nemesis against say, Insurrection or Timeline, it doesn't fare well.
Chris.
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I hate to say it but it may not be Goldsmith's fault. I have to wonder, as much as Stuart Baird crapped all over this film, if he (the director) insisted on the dreck that ended up as most of the Shinzon material. There's definitely some rousing exciting stuff in there; of course hardly his best but still decent stuff to listen to. And then there's long stretches of atmospheric dreck from the same guy that made the boring ST:TMP interesting to listen to.
Composers are hired by and controlled by the director, so I have to believe it had a large hand in the shaping of this mediocre effort. Perhaps that combined with Goldsmith's failing health.
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This is probably arriving here tomorrow (along with the rest of the recent Club batch), and I'm actually looking forward to seeing how I'm going to feel about the score. Will I totally reevaluate it for better or worse? Will I feel the same about it as before? Who knows? (I guess I will in a few days time, but let me continue asking useless rhetorical questions for the time being.)
I've not seen the movie since it came out on DVD, so I don't have quite so vivid a music/image association, and while this is not one of my more played Goldsmith scores, there are several individual elements of this score that I'm quite fond of. The hyper-charged version of Shinzon's theme that opens the score is quite enjoyable, and the way Goldsmith uses a rhythmic variant on his TMP march as a counterpoint/answering phrase to Shinzon's theme in "Ideals" is quite effective taken on its own. The "ticking" synthesizer provides an interesting, inexorable motor for much of the score - though I think the "doppler" synthesizer effect from "Insurrection" far more effective and memorable (I adore the "Insurrection" score quite unabashedly, actually). I find the opening string and synth sting to "Odds and Ends" and the sixteenth-note piano pattern that ornaments "The Scorpion" oddly memorable, too - they both pop up in my head at the oddest times. I'm also a tremendous sucker for what has come to be known over the years and liner notes as the "Quest Motif," so I've always been taken with the "A New Friend" cue, which possesses a clarity and honesty of emotion that the film itself does not. And, regardless of what Shinzon's theme (I'm wondering now how many more times I can type "Shinzon's theme" in this entry without screaming) is actually representative of, I've always liked its full reading in the "End Credits," though the Motion Picture march is oddly (though ultimately appropriately) anemic in its performance.
Regarding this new edition, I guess I'm most looking forward to hearing the connections to Goldsmith's previous "Trek" work. I know it's been talked about a bit in various threads, but not having suffered through the totally (and somewhat inexplicably) enervating film again, I can't recall any specifics - one reason I'm grateful for these complete editions is that I can treat them as their own unique tone-poems, and explore them for whatever different elements I'm in the mood to listen for.
By the way, I don't know if anyone has ever watched any of the behind-the-scenes supplements on the two-disc edition of the movie, but there's this brilliant interview with Jonathan Frakes where he discusses the end of the film. He's clearly having none of it, and is gleefully screwing with the film crew and the audience. It's utterly delightful. (Actually, I loved this bit so much, I dug up a transcript of it: "Do we in fact lose Data, or do we gain B-4? And is B-4 Data... and is Data B-4? [long pause] What comes first? B-4? Data -- Lore? Perhaps. I know not.")
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Posted: |
Jan 18, 2014 - 2:59 AM
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By: |
Spymaster
(Member)
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I love this score - always have, from the original CD to the "almost complete promo" to this.... to how it functions in the admittedly pretty awful film. Goldsmith's music insinuates throughout. It creeps and crawls and plots alongside the characters, most obviously during the Romulan Senate sequences - "Allegiance".
And to those who asked, my interpretation of Shinzon's theme is one of duality, consisting of two 5-note phrases, beginning with the same 3 notes, then veering downwards in the first phrase and up in the second. Just as Shinzon is, and what he could have been (Picard). I might be teading too much into it, but that thematic concept struck me back on 2002.
Then there's Baird's obvious preference for discrete scoring (Executive Decision) and his comment that they purposefully set out to make the tone of Nemesis sad to mark the TNG crew's fonal voyage. None of this helped. I imagine Rick Berman was in there stirring the pot too.
But the movie is shit. It robs Goldsmith of a genuinely decent "big emotional finish" to score. A lovely reflective ending like First Contact would have worked brilliantly, not the Brent Spiner ego trip nonesense that it was lumbered with.
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Posted: |
Jan 18, 2014 - 2:27 PM
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By: |
Ado
(Member)
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I have never understood the loathing for Nemesis.
It seems to be a case of expectations.
It is not a laugh fest or light hearted at all.
Maybe it should be, not sure.
Some of the best Star Trek original episodes were deadly serious though, like Balance of Terror, not a single laugh line in it. It is grim, serious, depressing, a great story though. Nemesis is often also grim and serious, there is nothing cute or Spielbergian about this science fiction. I think some people want the sci-fi always a tounge in cheek, like Men in Black or Transformers or past Trek like Insurrection. This is not a film without fault for sure, but not nearly as terrible as it is labled, and I always though the score was appropriate and textural with the film. As one of Jerrys' last scores, I think he could be proud of it.
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I have never understood the loathing for Nemesis.
It seems to be a case of expectations.
It is not a laugh fest or light hearted at all.
Maybe it should be, not sure.
Some of the best Star Trek original episodes were deadly serious though, like Balance of Terror, not a single laugh line in it. It is grim, serious, depressing, a great story though. Nemesis is often also grim and serious, there is nothing cute or Spielbergian about this science fiction. I think some people want the sci-fi always a tounge in cheek, like Men in Black or Transformers or past Trek like Insurrection. This is not a film without fault for sure, but not nearly as terrible as it is labled, and I always though the score was appropriate and textural with the film. As one of Jerrys' last scores, I think he could be proud of it.
Agreed.I think its a very underrated movie.Terrific performances, great action sequences, and Jerrys score is excellent.Its also a movie that despite its overall tone has some great moments of whimsical humour.Some of my favourite moments is Picard and the bridge crew teasing Worf about the ' no clothes ' tradition of the upcoming wedding and picards subsequent line ' Ill be in the gym '.
Also really like Picard and Datas escape from the Scimitar ' Would you like me to drive sir? '
As for the score, im expecting my new cd of it in the post in a few days and am really looking forward to it.' Final Flight ' is in my opinion, the single greatest action cue Goldsmith wrote in his entire career.
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Posted: |
Jan 18, 2014 - 5:39 PM
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By: |
SchiffyM
(Member)
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I have never understood the loathing for Nemesis.
It seems to be a case of expectations.
It is not a laugh fest or light hearted at all.
Look, if you like the movie, by all means, like it. I think that those of us who think it's a disaster have made their case in various threads. But trust me, it has nothing to do with the film not being a laugh fest (though in fact, the film makes many attempts at humor, pretty much all excruciating save Picard's funny "I'll be in the gym" line). It's the somnolent performances. It's the villain whose motives are baffling and grudge against Picard misdirected. It's the rote plotting (yet another madman has somehow acquired a gigantic spaceship and pointed it toward Earth). It's action scenes that are fast-paced without a millisecond of tension. It's just the final gasps of a franchise that felt completely spent.
Just my opinion, of course. But I assure you, my loathing is pure, untainted by expectations of a lighthearted romp. It was one of the more depressing afternoons of cinema I've had in the past in recent(ish) memory.
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Posted: |
Jan 18, 2014 - 5:52 PM
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By: |
RM Eastman
(Member)
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Mr. Eastman, I respect your opinion, and your passion. But boy, is this set a slog for me. Long, long stretches with no development, just the same slow rendition of a theme that I find one of Goldsmith's least memorable. What is Shinzon's theme supposed to be conveying? I have no idea, nor does it interest me. The action music has none of the interest of a great Goldsmith action score -- it's just so much shouting and obviousness. Even the performance of Goldsmith's great "Trek" theme feels lifeless and rote to me.
Sure, the film does him no favors. But I'm not trying to damn Goldsmith, one of my idols. I just can't pretend I have any desire to listen to this again. I have more than 150 Goldsmith CDs, and this one isn't in the top 145.
I respect your opinion too, but I find this Goldsmith Trek adventure lush and beautiful in complete form.
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Posted: |
Jan 18, 2014 - 5:57 PM
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By: |
Tom Servo
(Member)
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I have never understood the loathing for Nemesis.
It seems to be a case of expectations.
It is not a laugh fest or light hearted at all.
Maybe it should be, not sure.
Some of the best Star Trek original episodes were deadly serious though, like Balance of Terror, not a single laugh line in it. It is grim, serious, depressing, a great story though. Nemesis is often also grim and serious, there is nothing cute or Spielbergian about this science fiction. I think some people want the sci-fi always a tounge in cheek, like Men in Black or Transformers or past Trek like Insurrection. This is not a film without fault for sure, but not nearly as terrible as it is labled, and I always though the score was appropriate and textural with the film. As one of Jerrys' last scores, I think he could be proud of it.
Agreed.I think its a very underrated movie.Terrific performances, great action sequences, and Jerrys score is excellent.Its also a movie that despite its overall tone has some great moments of whimsical humour.Some of my favourite moments is Picard and the bridge crew teasing Worf about the ' no clothes ' tradition of the upcoming wedding and picards subsequent line ' Ill be in the gym '.
Also really like Picard and Datas escape from the Scimitar ' Would you like me to drive sir? '
As for the score, im expecting my new cd of it in the post in a few days and am really looking forward to it.' Final Flight ' is in my opinion, the single greatest action cue Goldsmith wrote in his entire career.
"Final Flight" is indeed a pretty great action cue, but can you really say that it tops such masterpieces of his like "The Retreat" from THE BLUE MAX, "Raisuli Attacks" from THE WIND AND THE LION and "The Big Jump" from TOTAL RECALL?
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Here's my take.
I really like the expanded album. Yes it is quite monotonous and boring for long stretches, but I like it for the quality material that you DO get added on. I simply skip the boring parts.
As for it being a bad film; while I do agree it is far from quality work, and while it might play a part, there are several bad Star Trek films that still turn out outstanding scores. Insurrection is mediocre but in my opinion is classic Goldsmith. TMP and Final Frontier are famously horrible, with awesome scores, one of which got an Oscar nomination despite it being a slower than molasses moving film. I really think it's misdirection on the part of the director.
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